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  1. #11
    Senior Member captain curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I've been listening to an excellent documentary on Harper High School in Chicago.

    If you live around Harper, you are automatically in a gang. And they tell us a gang wouldn't be a gang without guns.
    This is such blatantly oversimplified thinking that, if it weren't coming from someone who seems to enjoy being seen as an intellectual, it would be incredibly amusing.

    Automatically in a gang? No. Probably- perhaps coerced, prodded, manipulated- I don't doubt it.

    No gangs without guns? Just because gangs don't have guns to utilize doesn't, and wont, mean that they are, in fact, gangs.
    Jarlaxle: fact checking this thread makes me want to go all INFP on my wrists

    "I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing."
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    Johari Nohari

    https://www.librarything.com/profile/wheelchairdoug

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelchairdoug View Post
    This is such blatantly oversimplified thinking that, if it weren't coming from someone who seems to enjoy being seen as an intellectual, it would be incredibly amusing.

    Automatically in a gang? No. Probably- perhaps coerced, prodded, manipulated- I don't doubt it.

    No gangs without guns? Just because gangs don't have guns to utilize doesn't, and wont, mean that they are, in fact, gangs.
    Is that the first time you've detected that? I mean I think its standard in Victors posts.

    Guns dont make the gang and if you're talking about living in a particular neighbourhood means automatic inclusion in gangs then you're not talking about gangs any longer so much as communities.

  3. #13
    Senior Member captain curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Is that the first time you've detected that? I mean I think its standard in Victors posts.
    No, and I have as well. It's just that his logic was so full of holes and failure this time that I knew I could offer a sufficient response with minimal effort, and couldn't avoid doing so in good conscience.
    Jarlaxle: fact checking this thread makes me want to go all INFP on my wrists

    "I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing."
    -Roger Waters

    ReadingRainbows: OMG GUYS
    ReadingRainbows: GUESS WHAT EXISTS FOR ME
    hel: fairies?
    Captain Curmudgeon: existential angst?


    Johari Nohari

    https://www.librarything.com/profile/wheelchairdoug

  4. #14
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Arms Trade Treaty

    Of course Americans live in a gun-ridden society and will defend the indefensible with 'logic' and ad hominem attacks.

    And this explains why Americans refuse to sign an Arms Trade Treaty with the rest of the world.

  5. #15
    Senior Member captain curmudgeon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Of course Americans live in a gun-ridden society and will defend the indefensible with 'logic' and ad hominem attacks.

    And this explains why Americans refuse to sign an Arms Trade Treaty with the rest of the world.
    This is a more valid point, although still painted with a broader brush than I would like



    Hopefully this wasn't meant as a reply to my post(s).
    Jarlaxle: fact checking this thread makes me want to go all INFP on my wrists

    "I'm in competition with myself and I'm losing."
    -Roger Waters

    ReadingRainbows: OMG GUYS
    ReadingRainbows: GUESS WHAT EXISTS FOR ME
    hel: fairies?
    Captain Curmudgeon: existential angst?


    Johari Nohari

    https://www.librarything.com/profile/wheelchairdoug

  6. #16
    Senior Member _eric_'s Avatar
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    This topic reminds me of something, what was it now...hmmm...

    Ah yes, here it is...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibi..._United_States

    That sure was a splendid idea! Why not do it again?

    Oh, that's right, we already did.

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/06/opinio...d-war-on-drugs

    Third time's the charm, right?

  7. #17
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Prohibition and Moderation

    Quote Originally Posted by _eric_ View Post
    This topic reminds me of something, what was it now...hmmm...

    Ah yes, here it is...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibi..._United_States

    That sure was a splendid idea! Why not do it again?

    Oh, that's right, we already did.

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/06/opinio...d-war-on-drugs

    Third time's the charm, right?
    We have discovered that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely, so we adopted liberal democracy to limit power.

    So we limit power, we don't abolish power. So we have successfully limited the power of cigarettes, even in the face of the Tobacco Companies.

    And we have successfully limited the power of guns so we now have no, repeat no, gun massacres. And we have successfully limited guns in the face of the gun lobby.

    And we have successfully limited the road toll by introducing compulsory seat belts.

    And we have successfully limited the power of money in politics by compulsory voting.

    And as I write we are planning to limit the power of alcohol, but not of course prohibit it.

    So the secret is not prohibition, but limitation.

    The secret is moderation, discovered by the Ancient Greeks 3,000 years ago.

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelchairdoug View Post
    No, and I have as well. It's just that his logic was so full of holes and failure this time that I knew I could offer a sufficient response with minimal effort, and couldn't avoid doing so in good conscience.
    Its the same logic that applies in the anti-catholic rants too though, guns cause gangs, priests cause child abuse, muslims cause terrorism.

    It concerns me how widespread that kind of thing is.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelchairdoug View Post
    This is a more valid point, although still painted with a broader brush than I would like



    Hopefully this wasn't meant as a reply to my post(s).
    I'm not it was though, living in a "gun ridden" society causes ad hominem attacks? The way he phrased the first part of that post, attacking "logic" is itself an ad hominem attack surely?

    I sort of think sometimes that Victor has read a lot of "how to argue" books and got the message all wrong, then comes onto forums, emotes like crazy and posts a lot of angry stuff which he figures will be popular.

    Anyway, what's the correlation or relationship between private gun ownership and the signing of arms trade treaties anyway?

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by _eric_ View Post
    This topic reminds me of something, what was it now...hmmm...

    Ah yes, here it is...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibi..._United_States

    That sure was a splendid idea! Why not do it again?

    Oh, that's right, we already did.

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/06/opinio...d-war-on-drugs

    Third time's the charm, right?
    I really dont think that there's equivalence in those questions, certainly dont think that controls on the possession, sale and availability of drugs is the same thing as alcohol, although thanks for making this point.

    If you're legislating counter to the culture you're inviting problems, if you're legislating in order to change the culture I think that invites problems too and leaves too many people begging the question of the legitimacy of the authorities or their sense. That goes for a lot of the liberal agenda.

    I can understand why prohibition happened in the states, the drinking habits are different to the rest of the world, I mean that in a positive sense too.

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