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  1. #11
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    It's no joke. I'm serious. Nor is it based on a "bright tomorrow". I'm not a dreamer. I have faith in real things.. hard work, ingenuity, and competitiveness. That might sound libertarian, but i'm definitely not that. The other part of the equation is that with a clean slate, regulation has it's own opportunity to grow and set powerful boundaries as well.

    The difference with Somalia is mostly about territory. There's no reason why anyone should live there to begin with. Even if they had the most ideal social environment. Their land is dead. America isn't. There was a time when resources actually meant something. They don't in this economy.
    The sort of correct that you're hopeful would follow a total collapse wont, the reason I mentioned somalia is because the only rule there now is that might makes right, its largely what you can expect in the wake of a total collapse like that. You get "lucky" and you get fascism or a police state, you get unlucky and you get chaotic power struggles for a couple of generations.

    Best case scenario your opening scene looks something like the Irish potato famine with anything up to a third of the population dying a slow death or a violent quick one while the government is either powerless to do a thing or refuses to do a thing.

  2. #12
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The sort of correct that you're hopeful would follow a total collapse wont, the reason I mentioned somalia is because the only rule there now is that might makes right, its largely what you can expect in the wake of a total collapse like that. You get "lucky" and you get fascism or a police state, you get unlucky and you get chaotic power struggles for a couple of generations.

    Best case scenario your opening scene looks something like the Irish potato famine with anything up to a third of the population dying a slow death or a violent quick one while the government is either powerless to do a thing or refuses to do a thing.
    I never said a collapse of law (or the foundation of law.. ie The Constitution). That's another thing Somalia lacks. A binding mythos or set of principles. No doubt, people would try to break away from it in this situation, but I don't think they'd win (you can accuse me of being hopeful here though).

    Fascism would occur if that mythos took on an exclusively racial/nationalistic bent (rather than the abstract one America enjoys). Like Germans were motivated to rebuild through a more insane belief in national identity.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I never said a collapse of law (or the foundation of law.. ie The Constitution). That's another thing Somalia lacks. A binding mythos or set of principles. No doubt, people would try to break away from it in this situation, but I don't think they'd win (you can accuse me of being hopeful here though).

    Fascism would occur if that mythos took on an exclusively racial/nationalistic bent (rather than the abstract one America enjoys).
    I dont see how the rule of law could survive in the scenario you describe.

  4. #14
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont see how the rule of law could survive in the scenario you describe.
    You're giving too much credit to banks then. You think they hoist the rule of law on their backs too? That's believing that they really are the Atlas of the world.

    There was a time when Catholics thought any form of usury was a sin, y'know. I suggest we go back to that thinking.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    There was a time when Catholics thought any form of usury was a sin.
    Yes, it was the Scottish Enlightenment and, "The Wealth of Nations", by Adam Smith that showed that private greed gave us public prosperity. And so usury was abandoned and modern economics was born.

    The prohibition of usury is intuitive, and is maintained by Islam today, while modern economics is counter-intuitive.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    You're giving too much credit to banks then. You think they hoist the rule of law on their backs too? That's believing that they really are the Atlas of the world.

    There was a time when Catholics thought any form of usury was a sin, y'know. I suggest we go back to that thinking.
    Nothing has changed, usury and banking are not the same thing.

    Anyway, its got little to do with the banks, they are part of it but if the sort of meltdown you described took place it would be bad for all those involved.

    The best and truest line in Gangs of New York was when one of the over classes said that they could depend upon one half of the poor to kill the other half if the price was right and that's still true.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Yes, it was the Scottish Enlightenment and, "The Wealth of Nations", by Adam Smith that showed that private greed gave us public prosperity. And so usury was abandoned and modern economics was born.

    The prohibition of usury is intuitive, and is maintained by Islam today, while modern economics is counter-intuitive.
    And it wasnt the only thing on the list of nice theories which didnt work out in practice.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    I think it's a possible misnomer. (The two concepts cancel each other out.)
    "..And the eight and final rule: If this is your first time at Fight Club, you have to fight."
    'Men are meant to be with women. The rest is perversion and mental illness.'

  9. #19
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    usury and banking are not the same thing.
    The whole foundation of banks is loans and collecting interest. Interest started off as an idea to simply collect loss. Then it centered around collecting profit from lending. This is usury.

    Anyway, its got little to do with the banks, they are part of it but if the sort of meltdown you described took place it would be bad for all those involved.
    Sure. Just like a Tsunami doesn't single out the rich from the poor either. I don't dispute that many people die in the process. I dispute whether it's worth carrying on a system that keeps rewarding the rich and flushes out the poor. Might as well let them all go in one fell swoop.

    The best and truest line in Gangs of New York was when one of the over classes said that they could depend upon one half of the poor to kill the other half if the price was right and that's still true.
    This wouldn't be the case at all. Warren Buffett (humorously) praised the bailouts by saying he'd be eating Thanksgiving at McDonald's if it wasn't for the bailouts. And he's one of the more secure of the "over-classes". He'd be the last to have to eat at McD's, but he'd be there eventually. This isn't just a matter of the "poor killing each other".

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