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  1. #81
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    There are many things that we just made up as rights. My government decided seat belts are not only beneficial, but mandatory and vital to my life. When were these ever mandatory before? We just sort of made it up. And it wasn't even for the sake of our safety.. that's the real gripe on it all. I don't feel like storm troopers will be invading Icelandic homes anytime soon.. but.. I'm more inclined to believe that the further away you get from small communities, the more corrupt something is. I don't think governments do things just and only for the sake of the people anymore.
    I agree with all of this.

    And Aphrodite has a point. While it may not hold any value of culture, I'm sure many people thought that the books they were burning had zero value as well to their culture.. only corruption. Some people see absolutely nothing wrong or corrupting about pornography. So why fix what isn't broken? It is completely driven by the moral compass, this argument, and that is why I say it should fall onto the people, not the government, to fix it.
    We've discussed this before. All crimes are driven by a moral compass. Murder is outlawed because it's immoral. That's why we look at intent and not just whether a person caused someone else to die.

    And no one has bothered to answer my questions on what constitutes pornography in the first place, as there are many gray areas in this modern age.
    You can always go with Justice Potter Stewart's "I know it when I see it."


    Edit: that last bit is a half joke. But, seriously the if the FCC can come up with guidelines for network tv and cable I'm sure it's not really that hard.
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  2. #82
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Have you ever watched Dreamworld 3? It is a documentary about the abuse of women and subconsciously putting them in inferior positions in our modern day media. Using this as an argument against pornography is weak at best.. at least they're being blatant about it and not trying to hide it. This attitude is everywhere in our society.. no one is banning perverse music, music videos, TV shows, movies, etc. that all have these concepts in it. Why attack the parts where people are naked and having sex for the purpose of the sex only? It seems weak and flimsy.. I highly doubt the government has the welfare of women in mind when they're making these laws. I almost wish they did. But I don't trust that.
    Iceland has the most gender equality of any nation... I'm betting they do have it on their mind.
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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    There isn't any kind of fundamental right to view porn and it is a preference.
    By this reasoning, what is there a fundamental right to do?

    Do I have a fundamental right to read Harry Potter* or watch CNN, or can this be banned as well, if it is considered socially damaging? What distinguishes porn except for subjective morality?

    *A funny example but you get my point.

  4. #84
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Iceland has the most gender equality of any nation... I'm betting they do have it on their mind.
    An openly lesbian prime minister isn't an absolute indicator of a country that values gender equality, but it might be a sign that its not against it.

    These aren't Americans, guys.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #85
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    We've discussed this before. All crimes are driven by a moral compass. Murder is outlawed because it's immoral. That's why we look at intent and not just whether a person caused someone else to die.
    Murder is outlawed because it does physical harm, regardless of the reason why. Anything from "they raped my daughter" to "they cut me off in the parking lot" is not used as an excuse. The government protects its people.. in the case of murder, regardless of if the people think they deserve it or not, the government protects both sides of the issue. There are some things that just have to be 'immoral' for the sake of our society not falling to pieces since we require each other to thrive in this current lifestyle. .. And even murder has gray areas, as absolute and permanent as it is. So it's easy to see how I'd like to avoid governments meddling more than necessary. It's one thing for a majority of the people to make noise and get things going.. another for the government to announce something and see people's reactions. Though, I'm not in Iceland, so I don't know how it got initiated.

    You can always go with Justice Potter Stewart's "I know it when I see it."
    Yeah, but I can already see poor Icelandic suckers that video tape themselves getting hacked and then getting fined for it even though they didn't distribute it themselves.. and I'd be really sad if I got my SO's picture taking skills taken from me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Iceland has the most gender equality of any nation... I'm betting they do have it on their mind.
    I don't trust anyone enough to think that the welfare of the people is the first thing on anyone in a position of power's mind. But maybe that's a bit jaded of me. In my experience, usually the people in positions of power that DO have the welfare of its people in mind are really, really hated.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    An openly lesbian prime minister isn't an absolute indicator of a country that values gender equality, but it might be a sign that its not against it.

    These aren't Americans, guys.
    No, they're not. Iceland is going to do whatever Iceland does.
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  6. #86
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    By this reasoning, what is there a fundamental right to do?

    Do I have a fundamental right to read Harry Potter* or watch CNN, or can this be banned as well, if it is considered socially damaging? What distinguishes porn except for subjective morality?

    *A funny example but you get my point.
    Given the state of our news media people might be better off without it.

    Seriously, though I do think there's a sliding scale of the value of different rights. My country tends to put highest value on any political speech and protect it vigorously even protecting a shirt that says "fuck the draft" from local conduct laws. So banning CNN would be frowned on.

    Rights do overlay each other and I tend think a locality should have the rights to limit certain rights and prioritize others. People would say they have a right to food and drink, yet we have dry towns that limit that right. I love beer and it saddens me that there are dry towns, but it's their right to limit distribution of alcohol. The problems arise when we enact these types of limitations on a broad level as was the problem with the 18th amendment prohibiting alcohol.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
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  7. #87
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    An openly lesbian prime minister isn't an absolute indicator of a country that values gender equality, but it might be a sign that its not against it.

    These aren't Americans, guys.
    I was referring to the World Economic Forum's Gender Cap Report which claims that Iceland has the most gender equality in income which would say something about both the government and the people.

    http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_Gen...eport_2012.pdf
    Take the weakest thing in you
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    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #88
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    I mean, it seems likely that porn isn't exactly conducive to promoting gender equality...just look at the way dudes treat the porn stars at those expos where they get to meet them. It's often appalling, and it's a direct result of porn consumption and what it does to ones mind.

    So, I'm not going to make excuses for it. It most likely is not healthy for individuals or society to consume.

    That said, I would never be in favor of any kind of legislation that would ban it, mostly as a matter of principle.
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  9. #89
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    No, they're not. Iceland is going to do whatever Iceland does.
    And, unlike the US, they might do something like this for reasons other than patriarchy and prudishness.

    With many laws the good of society is being balance against individual rights. In the US we have a strong philosophical bias toward individual rights, but not everyplace sees things that way. When you look at quality of life factors, figures seem to indicate that the folks who see things differently might have a point.

    We're used to assuming that the government can't do anything to influence society in ways that improve it. I believe government is limited in what it can do, however, our government and specifically, our regulatory agencies, are particularly influenced by the profit motives of a small minority of our citizens. They work more towards keeping competitors out of markets than they work toward protecting citizens from harmful stuff.

    Just because things are that way now doesn't mean they always have been or always have to be and just because they are that way here does not mean they are that way everywhere.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #90
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Government has no right to inhibit free speech of any kind.

    If parent's want to let their kids watch porn, it's their right to do so. Always has been. How is the internet any different than Daddy's Penthouse? Point is, seems like people seem to think that if the medium changes, the laws need to change. I disagree. Just because the medium changes, doesn't mean rights should then become infringed.

    If you must judge, judge the action when the woman is abused and takes her abuser to trial. Trying to circumvent that by enacting such a controlling law on all of society is just wrong. I'm with Uber. It's akin to gun control. It's free speech.

    Besides, watching violent porn will not make one abuse in and of itself. Just as gamers don't all the sudden start snyping down their friends. Violence comes from deeper places, like a violent home, etc.
    Well, yes, that's one way to do things and there are plenty of places in the world that do things that way. Some European and especially some Scandinavian countries take a different approach to things and it would appear that they do so with the support of the people and often get positive results from such approaches.

    I know our founding documents say that our rights are self-evident, inalienable, and endowed by God but they were determined by people, just like laws are now.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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