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  1. #61
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Unless you actually think porn has some societal value I don't understand why you would immediately condemn this.
    It isn't the pornography itself I am condemning.. it is the government instilling personal morals in its citizens' private lives. I don't want my government telling me if they agree with my sex life. I don't pay them for that. I don't need their opinion on my sexual habits regardless of what they are. I don't want them telling anyone else that either. Their job is to protect the people.. Clearly, some things require protection that go beyond personal and private lives (rape, pedophiles, sex slave trades, pornography being allowed in public places like libraries, etc.) but outside of protective measures they should have very little say on the decisions I make in the privacy of my own home. I don't want the government influencing every aspect of my life.. just the aspects that I need them for. Just like I will continue to pay my taxes, try not to break the law, and serve my country.. because that's what they need me for. They don't need me up there in Washington everyday telling them they should eat a healthier breakfast before work. That isn't really my job even though I think healthy food is important.
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  2. #62
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It isn't the pornography itself I am condemning.. it is the government instilling personal morals in its citizens' private lives. I don't want my government telling me if they agree with my sex life. I don't pay them for that. I don't need their opinion on my sexual habits regardless of what they are. I don't want them telling anyone else that either. Their job is to protect the people.. Clearly, some things require protection that go beyond personal and private lives (rape, pedophiles, sex slave trades, pornography being allowed in public places like libraries, etc.) but outside of protective measures they should have very little say on the decisions I make in the privacy of my own home. I don't want the government influencing every aspect of my life.. just the aspects that I need them for. Just like I will continue to pay my taxes, try not to break the law, and serve my country.. because that's what they need me for. They don't need me up there in Washington everyday telling them they should eat a healthier breakfast before work. That isn't really my job even though I think healthy food is important.
    That's your government. I'm talking about their government.

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  3. #63
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I think equating drug laws with this is a bit off. There are benefits to outlawing drugs and letting the channels go underground. It affects working and lower class areas the most. Lower classes affected by drugs end up in a stupor, form gangs that kill each other off, and on a whole, remain undereducated. While those who don't do drugs in these areas are still unmotivated, working for the lowest wages, in debt, and unable to enact any serious change in society. And those who get prosecuted still benefit the upper echelons in society through imprisonment. Whether it's through contracting private prisons, or heaping a heavy tax on the middle class to pay for jail costs (for example, it costs around 47k in California just to keep one prisoner locked up for a year. Who do you think pays for all of this? You do). Basically, the "drug war" is a racket in itself. The "war on porn" isn't. At least, I don't see how it could be. Maybe someone with more imagination can think of something.

  4. #64
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Unless you actually think porn has some societal value I don't understand why you would immediately condemn this.
    The societal value of porn is not the most important factor; what counts is the societal value in not attempting to legally proscribe actions that do directly affect the life, liberty, or property of others. Any net social costs to society caused by pornography by and for consenting adults is not great enough to make an exception in this case, especially in light of the unintended consequences of prohibition.

    There are also likely to be different issues involved between prohibition against online porn and prohibitions against regular porn, namely the level of intrusion necessary to pursue (if not achieve) a ban on online porn compared to that of regular porn. I would support the right of any locality to pursue a ban on the legal sale, production, or distribution of regular porn (out of principle rather than preference), but I'm not so sure about online porn.

  5. #65
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Don't they as a community with a shared heritage have the right to order their own society the way they see fit?
    Only within the limits of basic individual rights; I don't think Iceland is actually violating the letter of that principle, but they are unwisely eroding its spirit in ways that I view to be dangerous and counter-productive.

  6. #66
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    That's your government. I'm talking about their government.

    Don't they as a community with a shared heritage have the right to order their own society the way they see fit?
    My point from the beginning is that if the PEOPLE do not want porn in their country, they will get rid of it regardless of help from the government. It is as simple as blocking those sites, and refusing to access them. Obviously not 100% of people are on board with this already if the government must take actions to ban it. Probably quite the opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Only within the limits of basic individual rights; I don't think Iceland is actually violating the letter of that principle, but they are unwisely eroding its spirit in ways that I view to be dangerous and counter-productive.
    This. Very exact. I know Iceland is not America.. it is very different.. but there are fundamental rights and liberties people should have no matter where they go. The ability to just be left alone in their private lives is certainly one of them.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I don't want my government telling me if they agree with my sex life. I don't pay them for that. I don't need their opinion on my sexual habits regardless of what they are.
    My government insisted on safe sex and stopped an epidemic in its tracks.

  8. #68
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Ban it, and you create a black market for it.

    Once it's ALL illegal and pushed under ground, that makes it much more difficult to really focus on the worst abuses like Child Porn.

    I personally have always found a regulated industry to be safer for society than an unregulated black market.
    I agree that may happen in this case, but I always hated this argument. You could use it to justify ANYTHING.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  9. #69
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The societal value of porn is not the most important factor; what counts is the societal value in not attempting to legally proscribe actions that do directly affect the life, liberty, or property of others.
    Unless you support anarchy that doesn't make any sense as all laws proscribe actions that do directly affect the life, liberty, or property of others. It's usually a question of how burdensome that affect is which requires a subjective and qualitative judgement of what is good and bad.

    Any net social costs to society caused by pornography by and for consenting adults is not great enough to make an exception in this case, especially in light of the unintended consequences of prohibition.
    Who determines the value of those social costs and the value of those consequences?

    At the end of the day it's always a subjective determination from a procedural standpoint. We can discuss what the values are that are involved and as a christian I do think that in the broader sense there are objective values at play, but from a political perspective the question is who get's to determine that?

    For thousands of years people have maintained social order by relying on community standards. To free the individual from the community's natural desire to create local laws you must be willing to subject the local community to a higher a force that will dictate to them how they must treat the individual. That's fine in some cases, but I believe in subsidiarity and that power should increase as the amount of people that are governed increases. You can see it in the early states before federal murder laws where they used to have the moral authority and ultimate control over life and liberty by exclusively determining whether someone should be punished for murder and what that punishment should be. Indeed this power goes right down to the family where Parent's largely control the life and liberty of their children.


    There are also likely to be different issues involved between prohibition against online porn and prohibitions against regular porn, namely the level of intrusion necessary to pursue (if not achieve) a ban on online porn compared to that of regular porn. I would support the right of any locality to pursue a ban on the legal sale, production, or distribution of regular porn (out of principle rather than preference), but I'm not so sure about online porn.
    Perhaps I shouldn't have gone on about subsidiarity above as obviously you do get what I'm after by supporting what local control of published material. I'll leave it anyway for other readers.

    I understand the concern about censoring of the Internet and the road that goes down. I guess I'm just not that concerned about it being a problem for a tiny western country like Iceland.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Only within the limits of basic individual rights; I don't think Iceland is actually violating the letter of that principle, but they are unwisely eroding its spirit in ways that I view to be dangerous and counter-productive.
    It just depends on how highly you value individual rights and if you believe in any other kind of rights. To me that "eroding" is just part of the necessary ballance between individual rights and community rights. As to whether it's counter-productive, well, it depends what the ends are that are trying to be achieved. A law can be an end to itself if people want to view it that way and it makes them happy. A ban on hunting a sacred bird may be counter-productive to providing food for the locals, but it is productive in preserving a culture and heritage.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    My point from the beginning is that if the PEOPLE do not want porn in their country, they will get rid of it regardless of help from the government. It is as simple as blocking those sites, and refusing to access them. Obviously not 100% of people are on board with this already if the government must take actions to ban it. Probably quite the opposite.
    You can use that argument for any law.


    This. Very exact. I know Iceland is not America.. it is very different.. but there are fundamental rights and liberties people should have no matter where they go. The ability to just be left alone in their private lives is certainly one of them.
    I get it. You're from Texas.
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    And always hold on when you get love
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  10. #70
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You can use that argument for any law.
    Very true, technically you could, only 'any' law could hurt the masses. Pornography being viewed in the home is not the same as child abuse. There is just a line people draw in the sand between being overbearing, petty, and feeling like someone is treating you like a child vs practical, useful laws. The lines start to blur when it comes to private issues like this.. I'd prefer too little as opposed to too much.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

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