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  1. #51
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Unless you actually think porn has some societal value I don't understand why you would immediately condemn this. Internet porn has only been around for 20 years and pornographic tapes and magazines have only been broadly circulated for around 50 years. It's a relatively new societal ill and it seems to me we should be open to different strategies to defeat it. Because of Iceland's isolation and small size it seems as good a place as any to try an experiment in banning it. I wouldn't support doing this at the federal level in the US, but on a smaller scale, sure.
    Yep. And I think the government will be pretty responsive to its citizens if it turns out to be wildly unpopular. If not, the citizens have shown that they are more than willing to be responsive to the government a la pitchforks and torches, if need be.

    They have a population a third the size of my state capital, so it's not like they are a giant unwieldy bureaucracy like the US or something.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Unless you actually think porn has some societal value I don't understand why you would immediately condemn this. Internet porn has only been around for 20 years and pornographic tapes and magazines have only been broadly circulated for around 50 years. It's a relatively new societal ill and it seems to me we should be open to different strategies to defeat it. Because of Iceland's isolation and small size it seems as good a place as any to try an experiment in banning it. I wouldn't support doing this at the federal level in the US, but on a smaller scale, sure.
    I'll condemn it because I enjoy porn.

    And I see no problem to with someone else enjoying the same, or making any number of other decisions in the privacy of their own home, like who they fuck or marry.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It's just a different mindset. Americans want to make those decisions for themselves. Yeah, sure, it reduced the mortality rate on the road.. But so would driving less.. and so would being a more fortified car than a small crappy Cobalt (this is the car I drive.. if I got into a serious wreck, my car would be like an aluminum foil wrapper). No one has made a law saying how often you can drive though. I think there are just too many gray areas when it comes to trying to make laws that structure the way people deal things like that. I can see the government putting out campaigns with information to show how useful seat belts are, and how easy a solution it is to a potentially life-threatening experience. But to punish people for being dumb enough to risk their lives anyways? It seems a little excessive. No one gets fined for skydiving, and that sport is extremely dangerous. And I doubt people are concerned about the citizens--it is more than likely used as a means of income. Collecting all those seat-belt tickets is a massive industry in and of itself. They see an opportunity to make money--spin it off as a safety issue and concern--and bam, a formula for success.
    Sure, a narcissist can't see past herself and even has an avatar that sexualises guns.

    But I live in a community that takes the Universal Declaration of Human Rights seriously, particularly the Right to Life, and so we do risk assessments on threats to life, and doing a cost benefit analysis, we minimise the risks.

    Narcissism is a natural part of the development of small children, but if they are loved unconditionally, they leave their narcissism behind and become responsible members of our community.

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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'll condemn it because I enjoy porn.

    And I see no problem to with someone else enjoying the same, or making any number of other decisions in the privacy of their own home, like who they fuck or marry.
    I don't see what your enjoyment of porn has to do with the people of Iceland who see it as a problem.

    I guess you'll have to avoid moving there. That's too bad.
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    yea... no. when you illegalize an industry, all your doing is forcing it to go underground and loosing the state's power to supervise it, and while this is bad enough when it comes to substances, we are talking about humans here!

    does anyone get the potential threat when porn producers are no longer legally supervised? the complete disregard to age restrictions? the ability to use human smuggled against their will? giving organized crime an entire industry on a silver plate?

    all of this "if it's bad we'll make it illegal" thinking with complete disregard to consequences is idealistic crap meant for an imaginary world were petty laws are enforced by comic book super hero's, and i don't know how anyone in Iceland can build up tolerance to this kind of incompetence in governance.

    if this passed and i was living in iceland, i would be fucking terrified for the children.
    If we accept that pornography is the graphic depiction of the brothel. And if we accept that the brothel is an expression of the hatred of women. Common decency suggests we try to do something about it.

    So the first step was to stop blaming sex workers and decriminalise sex work. And the second step, only taken for the first time, is to criminalise the buying of sex.

    And pornography is the buying of sex.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I don't see what your enjoyment of porn has to do with the people of Iceland who see it as a problem.

    I guess you'll have to avoid moving there. That's too bad.
    I'd be curious to see what % of the populace approves of the measure.

    I'm not too worried about it.

    I have no great desire to move to Iceland.

  7. #57
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Why is buying sex an inherently hateful act?
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    So the first step was to stop blaming sex workers and decriminalise sex work. And the second step, only taken for the first time, is to criminalise the buying of sex.
    to lead the victims in a waltz? because that's just one step forwards followed by two steps backwards. the moment you criminalize the transaction, you are pushing the brothel underground. the choice of "no brothels" is a false choice to began with, in real life's non-superhero-cops land, the actual choice is between hookers who can call the police for protection and hookers who'll be fired if they do, between brothels who check their employee's age, citizenship records and medical in order to be certified and brothels that don't need too, between businesses that check for their can run, hire and sell legally and organized crime.

    the reasonable choice is obvious - one has more less opportunities for suffering then the other, and the same is applicable to the porn industry. wouldn't the act expressing hatred be the one maximizing suffering? or else, the enforcers encouraging it indirectly will be worst then the brothels adapting to circumstances.

  9. #59
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Why is buying sex an inherently hateful act?
    You pay for porn?

  10. #60
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Sure, a narcissist can't see past herself and even has an avatar that sexualises guns.

    But I live in a community that takes the Universal Declaration of Human Rights seriously, particularly the Right to Life, and so we do risk assessments on threats to life, and doing a cost benefit analysis, we minimise the risks.

    Narcissism is a natural part of the development of small children, but if they are loved unconditionally, they leave their narcissism behind and become responsible members of our community.

    Narcissism in an adult is ugly.
    Attacking a person instead of the argument at hand isn't a very attractive thing either. So let's stick with the points being made and we can talk about how full I am of myself in another thread. There are plenty of people in Australia that were quite sad to turn in their weapons when the time came.. not 100% of Australia was on board with that. Only the majority. Which I suppose is what counts anymore. No one really cares about minorities, now do they? As long as most people get what they want.

    There are a hundred ways to minimize risks, and none of them are really effectively implemented. The only thing governments do, in general, is patch things up as it is absolutely needed. Even if you agree with seat belt laws, you cannot deny that they are enforced only because money is involved. If the law was that the person went to jail instead of getting a fine, no one would enforce them. Why? Because it costs money. A fine though? Government gets money every time some sucker on a long road trip decides to take a nap in the back seat. They are not enforced or there for the safety of the consumer, this is a guise. A practical guise, since it does involve safety, but this is the excuse not the primary reason.

    If the government was worried about the health of people and risks of dangerous stuff, they'd ban alcohol, cigarettes, drugs outside of prescriptions, and any vehicle not up to modern safety standards. This sort of thing isn't really practical though, regardless of how you feel. It's up to adults to make adult decisions about things like this because the government isn't a baby sitting service for misguided people. It merely protects the people on a higher level. Small, quick, and personal protections still fall on the average citizen to help out his/herself and (if they're nice) others around them. It should be a social peer pressure for seat belts to be fastened, not something the government profits from.

    And we're getting entirely away from the subject at this point. Iceland has every right to protect the general public from the perverse things people do in their personal lives. No public computers should have access to pornographic sites, etc. But it isn't really the government's responsibility and it certainly is not cost effective to try and implement such arbitrary moral standards on the individual citizen in their own private and personal life. What is pornographic to one person is art to another. What is a friendly exchange of pictures between spouses to one is horrific to two others. These sort of morals are way too subjective for a government to be burying its hands in it. Better to keep in it's domain and let personal lives be.. well.. personal. Let social pressure and education do the talking. It goes a lot farther than forced measures ever will.
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