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  1. #11
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Drones aren't protecting us from massive amounts of PTSD. It's massive land wars and nation building that are so costly in terms of money, fatalities, injuries and PTSD. We could restrict Drones to REAL imminent threats and situations where the intel is much better and makes clear there aren't innocent civilians around. Anywhere there are children we should be sending in special ops that can use some discernment. This would also have the plus of bringing more people in who surrender and can offer intel (provided we don't torture them). This is something Obama is clearly not doing given his child death count.
    I can agree with a lot of this (it's ideal at least), other than whatever this criteria is for "REAL" that you have. You haven't made it clear what it is, or where the white house has less access to "real" information than yourself. Apparently, military and intel are all operating on Obama's "wisdom and ethics" to locate imminent threats, and the burden is on everyone else except yourself to explain themselves.

  2. #12
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    his administration is one of the only in my living memory that has not embarked upon any fresh wars or interventions or maintained and escalated existing ones, including the Clinton administration.
    He provided key air support in overthrowing Libya. He's helping to cement the new leadership in Egypt with f16s tanks and guns and has been secretly running guns to Syrian rebels. His withdrawal from Afghanistan has been very slow and he's left a small military city in Iraq.

    No he hasn't started two land wars like W, but that's not much to brag about.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #13
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    He provided key air support in overthrowing Libya. He's helping to cement the new leadership in Egypt with f16s tanks and guns and has been secretly running guns to Syrian rebels. His withdrawal from Afghanistan has been very slow and he's left a small military city in Iraq.

    No he hasn't started two land wars like W, but that's not much to brag about.
    That's still less than Clinton did would you believe?

    I think there's a lot of these sorts of on going campaigning events which are not exactly executive led, at least not administrations which change every couple of years, deep state is behind it but its good to see that who is in office may have some influence.

  4. #14
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I can agree with a lot of this (it's ideal at least), other than whatever this criteria is for "REAL" that you have. You haven't made it clear what it is, or where the white house has less access to "real" information than yourself. Apparently, military and intel are all operating on Obama's "wisdom and ethics" to locate imminent threats, and the burden is on everyone else except yourself to explain themselves.
    I don't understand what you're saying. You're putting together the legal justification with intelligence gathering in a way I don't understand.

    Imminent means they have the capacity, means, and intention to perform an attack on the US or US citizens within a short time. I would define a short time as a period of time where other options are not available. If they have a bomb, plane, and a plan to attack the next day then they definitely have the capacity, means, and intention of performing a terrorist attack. Imminent does not mean not imminent.

    I don't understand why you keep bringing up "wisdom and ethics." That's what Carney said yesterday when the white paper came out indicating that unethical and unwise attacks were legally justified. His explanation was basically don't worry about what we view as a legally justifiable attack because Obama always uses wisdom and ethics when making these decisions.

    Obama doesn't have to reveal intelligence to justify each every attack right away. But, if his view of the law is that he is justified in violating human rights in a significant way then we have a serious problem.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #15
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That's still less than Clinton did would you believe?

    I think there's a lot of these sorts of on going campaigning events which are not exactly executive led, at least not administrations which change every couple of years, deep state is behind it but its good to see that who is in office may have some influence.
    The president is commander in chief, and does have the final say in giving the green light... but there is a lot of deliberation and analysis going on. And each advisor to the president has 10 advisors of their own. And those in turn deal with dozens of operatives and tons of intelligence (the "staffs" part of "chief of staffs"). Each of these leaders (Secretary of Defense, NSA, military branches, etc) are all confirmed by the Senate, which isn't necessarily beholden to the President. Beorn seems to think we live in cartoon fantasy land, where Obama is some dictator in a banana republic. And apparently, he has a bigger handle on "REAL" imminent threats.

  6. #16
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That's still less than Clinton did would you believe?
    Well, he hasn't had to take people's attention away from a stained dress by bombing a country.

    Another reason to be thankful for his fidelity to Michelle.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #17
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    The president is commander in chief, and does have the final say in giving the green light... but there is a lot of deliberation and analysis going on. And each advisor to the president has 10 advisors of their own. And those in turn deal with dozens of operatives and tons of intelligence (the "staffs" part of "chief of staffs"). Each of these leaders (Secretary of Defense, NSA, military branches, etc) are all confirmed by the Senate, which isn't necessarily beholden to the President. Beorn seems to think we live in cartoon fantasy land, where Obama is some dictator in a banana republic.
    He's responsible for his administration and their respect for human rights.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #18
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    I'm going to ask a mod to split some of this off into my new white paper thread.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #19
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Actually, on second thought I'm not going to ask for a thread split. Just post in the new thread on the white paper if you want to continue that discussion.

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ad.php?t=60920
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #20
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    He sounds similar to me, which I like.
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

    "I took one those personality tests. It came back negative." - Dan Mintz

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