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  1. #61
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    lolz. Your trolling would be more interesting if it was less obvious, bro. Nice effort, though. C+.
    It's interesting to see how each time someone write a elaborate post disagreeing with your views, you prefer to call that "trolling" than to bring any decent argument to prove your opponent wrong.

    Come on! If it is trolling, it should not be hard to debunk it, or maybe you know it's pertinent, and you prefer to call that trolling rather than admit that there's even at least a part of truth in what is written.

    That's a nice way to try to avoid the moment where you simply have to admit you're wrong and admit your defeat. But the tactic is really too much obvious to not be noticed.
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  2. #62
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    It's interesting to see how each time someone write a elaborate post disagreeing with your views, you prefer to call that "trolling" than to bring any decent argument to prove your opponent wrong.

    Come on! If it is trolling, it should not be hard to debunk it, or maybe you know it's pertinent, and you prefer to call that trolling rather than admit that there's even at least a part of truth in what is written.

    That's a nice way to try to avoid the moment where you simply have to admit you're wrong and admit your defeat. But the tactic is really too much obvious to not be noticed.
    To spend time "debunking" obviously stupid shit is to automatically lose.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  3. #63
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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  4. #64
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INA View Post
    I chuckle to think of the reaction from folks like the OP if women were to "offer" so-called "equal" behavior. Talk about an offer people would only be too eager to refuse.
    Just when women are moving towards full equality in the West, you seek to demoralise us.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    To spend time "debunking" obviously stupid shit is to automatically lose.
    Who loses? What is lost? Time and effort, yes, but assuming that what was put forth was put forth in good faith, then why not debunk? Opportunity cost, for one, but the thing about knowledge and understanding is that everything that has ever been learned, by any person, has to be demonstrated to every individual, over and over and over again. While individual learning is not the most efficient way to go about things, on the plus side, this is the internet, so anything written has the potential to have many more views than just one.

    Is the goal to have one team win? Or is it for everyone to be better off?

    Duck, I think you have a mixture of points, some I agree with, some I don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duck_of_Death View Post
    I just had an epiphany.

    Modern feminism...
    Quick pause. It should be noted that feminism, like any other broad movement, is made up of many sub-groups with variances.
    ... is like any other cult/business/political party: It panders to its demographics.

    In this instance, I'd surmise it is mostly outcasts, losers, victims, perceived victims, the damaged who need a soapbox to garner the attention or approval they never got from their parents or peers, etc.
    You know what?

    I think you're right.

    Most of the people who are part of feminism probably are outcasts, who have seen how, on the basis of gender, they have been devalued. Losers, who see that despite qualifications, they make less than their male counterparts in business. Victims - as much as 1 in 4 have been raped, and more have been assaulted, and perceived victims, who might think they are being attacked when they are not. And a whole lot of people who never got attention or approval, quite possibly based on their gender, for not being girly enough. But are there some in there who had non-gender issues and decided to drag their baggage into a gender war, to make it one? Probably. Are there people who just screw up and want someone to blame for their problems in there? Almost certainly.

    They offer short-term solutions to long-term problems that will continue long after you've accepted them.
    The only catch is you gotta drink the Kool-Aid. And if you don't--you're a "heretic".
    You're gonna have to be specific here. But ya know what - I think that all social movements do have some element of this. I've seen it, if you don't follow suit, you're to be held in suspicion.

    I can almost guarantee that if you look for this, you will find an example.

    This is another symptom of the competitive mindset taken to an extreme.

    However, I'd also try to look for the opposite: long term solutions, and the promotion of knowledge while maintaining the option for dissent.

    Look for that, and you'll find it too.

    Do you think these people genuinely care about you? They don't give a fuck about you. You're a number. A soldier that will march gleefully to the drums. A mindless follower that they can bend to their will.

    This is a universal constant among social groups and throughout history. Uniformity. Conformity. Homogeneity. You're required to surrender your identity to fulfill the agenda(s) of your masters. And the masters get their way more oft than not--weak people are embarrassingly easy to exploit with this method. Remember that subversive German movement back in the day? You know? The one that launched the second World War? That wasn't very hard to achieve, was it?

    I don't know who is more responsible: The man drinking the Kool-Aid or the man who offers it.
    Then again: If those people refused to drink the Kool-Aid, the man who offered it would be left with his dick in his hands.
    In all political movements there is some element of mindless following - some people vote purely based off party lines. However, I don't think that all movements are headed by evil overlords wanting to destroy their minions to accomplish some goal.

    I'm gonna pull MBTI on you, but ISTPs have a tendency to get a little more caught up in paranoia than typical. I can't agree with you here. Moreso, even though there are some mindless followers, not all of them are. Some of them really have thought about what they want to see or accomplish.

    I find it rather uneasy to align myself with goals of a movement when I don't feel it really matches my beliefs. However, you can lend support to a cause while maintaining your individuality. You do not have to lose yourself in it.

    Food for thought. Don't think about it too hard. You may end up with a nosebleed.
    Nose unbloodied,
    Bamboo
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  6. #66
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Our Prime Minister and our Head of State are successful feminists

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Most of the people who are part of feminism probably are outcasts, who have seen how, on the basis of gender, they have been devalued. Losers, who see that despite qualifications, they make less than their male counterparts in business. Victims - as much as 1 in 4 have been raped, and more have been assaulted, and perceived victims, who might think they are being attacked when they are not. And a whole lot of people who never got attention or approval, quite possibly based on their gender, for not being girly enough. But are there some in there who had non-gender issues and decided to drag their baggage into a gender war, to make it one? Probably. Are there people who just screw up and want someone to blame for their problems in there? Almost certainly.
    You only have to look to your left to see a successful feminist, Julia Gillard, Prime Minister of Australia.

    And if you care to look further you will find successful feminists as Government Ministers.

    And our Governor-General, Ms Quentin Bryce AC CVO, Commander-in-Chief, and Head of State, is a successful feminist.

    And not only do we have successful female feminists, we have successful male feminists.

    La lutte continue.

  7. #67
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Who loses? What is lost?
    A little bit of my dignity.

    Seriously, though, some opinions are not worth the dignity of examining closely enough to "debunk" or argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Time and effort, yes, but assuming that what was put forth was put forth in good faith, then why not debunk?
    It wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Opportunity cost, for one, but the thing about knowledge and understanding is that everything that has ever been learned, by any person, has to be demonstrated to every individual, over and over and over again. While individual learning is not the most efficient way to go about things, on the plus side, this is the internet, so anything written has the potential to have many more views than just one.
    Well then they must be reminded over and over that some opinions are not worth entertaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Is the goal to have one team win? Or is it for everyone to be better off?
    Everyone is better off being made aware of what counts as an opinion too far gone to qualify for debate material.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Duck, I think you have a mixture of points, some I agree with, some I don't.
    He certainly has a mixture of points in that stinking shit mess of a post, but I personally have no idea how you were able to retrieve anything good from the fecal matter. Nor why you'd try in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Most of the people who are part of feminism probably are outcasts, who have seen how, on the basis of gender, they have been devalued. Losers, who see that despite qualifications, they make less than their male counterparts in business. Victims - as much as 1 in 4 have been raped, and more have been assaulted
    If we went by this description, then most of womankind must be a part of feminism, even if they don't know it.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #68
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    You only have to look to your left to see a successful feminist, Julia Gillard, Prime Minister of Australia.

    And if you care to look further you will find successful feminists as Government Ministers.

    And our Governor-General, Ms Quentin Bryce AC CVO, Commander-in-Chief, and Head of State, is a successful feminist.

    And not only do we have successful female feminists, we have successful male feminists.

    La lutte continue.
    Indeed, there are a great many successful feminist figures!

    But it is only out of loss, failure, and inequality that such a movement would exist at all.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    A little bit of my dignity.

    Seriously, though, some opinions are not worth the dignity of examining closely enough to "debunk" or argue.
    Perhaps. How easy it is, to decide others aren't worth dignity.

    ...but assuming that what was put forth was put forth in good faith, then why not debunk?
    It wasn't.
    I cannot know. While some described it as trolling, he claimed otherwise. I think it's his real opinion. Unpolished and inflammatory, but very much his.

    Well then they must be reminded over and over that some opinions are not worth entertaining.
    I would agree that some beliefs are so backward that the time and effort to pull someones head from from their rear isn't worth it, because they truly are a deeply twisted reflection of reality.

    But I would note that the exact same logic you are providing has been used to ignore people with unpopular opinions all over the world with terrible consequence. Keeping on topic - women have been reminded, over and over, that their opinions just aren't worth it.


    Everyone is better off being made aware of what counts as an opinion too far gone to qualify for debate material.
    He certainly has a mixture of points in that stinking shit mess of a post, but I personally have no idea how you were able to retrieve anything good from the fecal matter. Nor why you'd try in the first place.
    And once again, I'm brought to something I'm trying to shed light on.

    What is the purpose of this discussion? It's not obvious, and it's not inherent, it's something decided on an individual level.

    As I've alluded to before in this thread - this could be a simple, petty argument. A debate. A stage where we get to see some sides brawl against each other and one side loses and the other side is declared victor. But whatever victory would be short lived, if it could be had at all. Instead, in likelihood, both sides, exhausted, will just let the argument die with nothing gained for either group. Nothing changed.

    What I'm trying to demonstrate, is that this competition - rather than small victories - could have the goal of cooperation and the elimination of undue prejudice in mind. When someone competes with you, you cannot fully cooperate with them - that is fine, because at least through competition we can enjoy an exchange of ideas.

    I'm not interested in winning for me, or even for a certain team, I'm putting that aside. What I'm interested in is attempting to exchange ideas. Any change that will come will not come easy. If the goal is cooperation and elimination of undue prejudice, should I only address those who agree with me?

    The purpose of a robust debate is that it creates tension. Without that tension, without that engagement, than people will continue believing what they believe without changing.

    My inspiration here comes from Martin Luther King.

    Quote Originally Posted by Letter From a Birmingham Jail, MLK
    [Negotiation] seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth. Just as Socrates felt that it was necessary to create a tension in the mind so that individuals could rise from the bondage of myths and half truths to the unfettered realm of creative analysis and objective appraisal, so must we see the need for nonviolent gadflies to create the kind of tension in society that will help men rise from the dark depths of prejudice and racism to the majestic heights of understanding and brotherhood.
    Furthermore, I believe that people often bring forth what you bring to them. If you bring forward honesty and dignity, perhaps they will as well. If you bring understanding, maybe they will show you something to be understood.

    If we went by this description, then most of womankind must be a part of feminism, even if they don't know it.
    I would say they are only a part of a movement if they are considering changing how things around them work and making an effort to do so themselves.

    What I'm trying to bring to you here is that this could be another petty argument. Or this could be something with greater benefits in mind.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  10. #70
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Perhaps. How easy it is, to decide others aren't worth dignity.




    I cannot know. While some described it as trolling, he claimed otherwise. I think it's his real opinion. Unpolished and inflammatory, but very much his.



    I would agree that some beliefs are so backward that the time and effort to pull someones head from from their rear isn't worth it, because they truly are a deeply twisted reflection of reality.

    But I would note that the exact same logic you are providing has been used to ignore people with unpopular opinions all over the world with terrible consequence. Keeping on topic - women have been reminded, over and over, that their opinions just aren't worth it.






    And once again, I'm brought to something I'm trying to shed light on.

    What is the purpose of this discussion? It's not obvious, and it's not inherent, it's something decided on an individual level.

    As I've alluded to before in this thread - this could be a simple, petty argument. A debate. A stage where we get to see some sides brawl against each other and one side loses and the other side is declared victor. But whatever victory would be short lived, if it could be had at all. Instead, in likelihood, both sides, exhausted, will just let the argument die with nothing gained for either group. Nothing changed.

    What I'm trying to demonstrate, is that this competition - rather than small victories - could have the goal of cooperation and the elimination of undue prejudice in mind. When someone competes with you, you cannot fully cooperate with them - that is fine, because at least through competition we can enjoy an exchange of ideas.

    I'm not interested in winning for me, or even for a certain team, I'm putting that aside. What I'm interested in is attempting to exchange ideas. Any change that will come will not come easy. If the goal is cooperation and elimination of undue prejudice, should I only address those who agree with me?

    The purpose of a robust debate is that it creates tension. Without that tension, without that engagement, than people will continue believing what they believe without changing.

    My inspiration here comes from Martin Luther King.



    Furthermore, I believe that people often bring forth what you bring to them. If you bring forward honesty and dignity, perhaps they will as well. If you bring understanding, maybe they will show you something to be understood.



    I would say they are only a part of a movement if they are considering changing how things around them work and making an effort to do so themselves.

    What I'm trying to bring to you here is that this could be another petty argument. Or this could be something with greater benefits in mind.
    Okay, I guess you must be feeling all inspirational and such...but how about you just go about your business and stop preaching at the rest of us who know better? Also, save your lessons in feminism 101 for those who need that shit, like DoD.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

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