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  1. #41
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Looking at abuse as a gender-specific problem will always fail because of the impact it has on children.
    Disregarding gender in addressing abuse overlooks the extent to which abuse draws on prevailing cultural traditions and social norms. Abuse by women tends to involve more emotional and psychological manipulation/control, while abuse by men tends to be more physical and sexual. An exception is that women are more likely to use a weapon against a man than the reverse, probably because they are likely to have less physical strength and confidence in their hand-to-hand ability. As women are encouraged to be more assertive and direct in expressing their needs and preferences, they are less likely to resort to controlling behavior and manipulation. As men learn to appreciate the equal humanity in women, they are less likely to be physically and sexually abusive.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #42
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Disregarding gender in addressing abuse overlooks the extent to which abuse draws on prevailing cultural traditions and social norms. Abuse by women tends to involve more emotional and psychological manipulation/control, while abuse by men tends to be more physical and sexual. An exception is that women are more likely to use a weapon against a man than the reverse, probably because they are likely to have less physical strength and confidence in their hand-to-hand ability. As women are encouraged to be more assertive and direct in expressing their needs and preferences, they are less likely to resort to controlling behavior and manipulation. As men learn to appreciate the equal humanity in women, they are less likely to be physically and sexually abusive.
    Disregarding gender? I'm not disregarding gender. I'm arguing against the idea that helping only women (the status quo) will fix the domestic violence problem. It won't. Children will replicate the abuse they witness regardless of the abusive adult's gender. That's how the cycle perpetuates itself. Do all you want to try to stop only male-on-female domestic violence, but it's not going to stop male children from learning that violence "solves problems" from their violent mothers. This problem cannot be solved by focusing on only one gender.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #43
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Uhh, in the the US we already spend close to $1 trillion more than we take in every year and many states are on the verge of bankruptcy...so yeah...those resources are tapped out. Stories like this lead me to believe charitable giving is on the decline.

    I don't know anything about MRAs. I did a google search to see if any MRAs were trying to get women's shelters closed, but I couldn't find anything. Do you have any suggestions for search terms?

    Sure, and it would be nice if there was no poverty or disease either. But we live in the real world where there are limited resources.
    *Edit: Deleted large spiel*

    Shorthand version:
    We, via charity or goverenment, pay for many things we cant afford. Since we are so in dept, one can say we cant actually afford to pay for anything we spend money on. Until m-shelters are understood to be an important area for our resources, we cannot predict how much of our resources (through charity of government) we would make available. As we certainly wouldnt be able to predict how much we now spend on w-shelters if we didnt currently have them. So, once again, I advise the MRAs or anyone else interested in the area to increase an awareness of the importance for this sort of support. If w-shelters still get all the cash, then you have proof that its a zero-sum game.

    A good example is movember. The practice of growing a mustache on November to get sponsored and raise money for prostate cancer. Its a fairly recent, but very successful, new campaign. Lots of money has been donated to prostate cancer through this. Has breast cancer UK (charity) noticed a drop in donations during that period? Somehow, I doubt it. Please do look it up. Im too lazy.


    The MRAs have not tried to close any women's shelters to my knowledge. I said they "said" x and y, not that they actually did x or y. Currently the MRA movement doesnt *do* much of anything, so Im arguing against what they say, rather than what they do.
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

  4. #44
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Disregarding gender? I'm not disregarding gender. I'm arguing against the idea that helping only women (the status quo) will fix the domestic violence problem. It won't. Children will replicate the abuse they witness regardless of the abusive adult's gender. That's how the cycle perpetuates itself. Do all you want to try to stop only male-on-female domestic violence, but it's not going to stop male children from learning that violence "solves problems" from their violent mothers. This problem cannot be solved by focusing on only one gender.
    No one is recommending helping only women. If you do a simple google search, you will find many organizations that help men. The fact remains, however, that not only are more women subject to domestic violence, but they tend to be willing to reach out for help more than men. Men are often too ashamed to admit they have been bullied by a woman, which itself is an aspect of gender bias that must be eliminated. We will not need more mens' shelters until more men in that situation start asking for help.

    Yes, the ideal is that everyone is treated with fairness and respect, and everyone can seek fulfillment free of arbitrary limitations. It has been more effective to work toward that goal piecemeal, identifying groups that share a common experience of abuse or discrimination, and helping them overcome it. Just telling everyone "be nice and play fair" doesn't work.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    What gives, feminism? Since you can't add up, how do you justify using the label of equality? I demand equality from your [double-standard] sense of equality. I have a right to it, as you say.
    The label of "equality" is a subjective one.
    Self-interest is definitely the Lord and Master here.

    I mean, the movement wasn't named "egalitarianism" was it?

    With that said: Interest groups are cunts.

  6. #46
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    Both feminism and internet MRActivism as it currently stands are guilty of this.
    It's disingenuous to equate feminism with MRA. Feminism is a broad church, but is essentially about advocating for equality. MRA opposes the equality agenda. Don't tar them both with the same brush.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I know women are just as violent
    Either men are being unfairly persecuted by the justice system, or you are misinformed. The vast majority of violent crime is committed by men.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #47
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    This. Both feminism and internet MRActivism as it currently stands are guilty of this. Though MRA much more so. To some folks, its a zero-sum game. As long as people believe this, true equality isnt gonna happen.
    What? MRActivism on the internet amounts to what is essentially hate group behavior. They have no theory, no goals. All they exist to do is complain about how feminism has ruined their lives, even though they scarcely have any idea what feminism is, and they are usually privilege class white males. They don't advocate anything on behalf of men except the renewed subjugation of women.

    How is that mindset equivalent to anything coming out of feminism, even the most radical separatist variety from back in the day? The big bad feminist who really just wants to exterminate men is a bogeyman that exists only in the fantasies of MRAs and those who have been fooled by their rhetoric.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #48
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    What? MRActivism on the internet amounts to what is essentially hate group behavior. They have no theory, no goals. All they exist to do is complain about how feminism has ruined their lives, even though they scarcely have any idea what feminism is, and they are usually privilege class white males. They don't advocate anything on behalf of men except the renewed subjugation of women.

    How is that mindset equivalent to anything coming out of feminism, even the most radical separatist variety from back in the day? The big bad feminist who really just wants to exterminate men is a bogeyman that exists only in the fantasies of MRAs and those who have been fooled by their rhetoric.
    In all likelihood, there exists something in the middle. It's not entirely one or the other. I doubt that everyone associated with the MRA advocates nothing else except subjugation, and I doubt that everyone who identifies as a feminist is not subject to intense hatred against "the other group", which was more my point to begin with.

    Ultimately, I would like there to not be a battle of the sexes - a competition. Rather, cooperation. Imagine the benefits of 50% of the population being able to cooperate without prejudice toward the other 50%. What a massive transformation that would be. Society could gain so much. That's the prize at the end of the struggle, one greater than the sum of petty victories for either side.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  9. #49
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Either men are being unfairly persecuted by the justice system, or you are misinformed. The vast majority of violent crime is committed by men.
    Sorry. I guess I didn't include enough context there. Women are as violent within romantic relationships in terms of the number of acts of violence against their partners, at least in the US. I don't think they do as much damage in their attacks as men do. I don't know whether or not there is unfair persecution in the justice system but violence by women against their male partners is almost certainly underreported. Honestly, it's barely even stigmatized.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #50
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    In all likelihood, there exists something in the middle. It's not entirely one or the other. I doubt that everyone associated with the MRA advocates nothing else except subjugation, and I doubt that everyone who identifies as a feminist is not subject to intense hatred against "the other group", which was more my point to begin with.

    Ultimately, I would like there to not be a battle of the sexes - a competition. Rather, cooperation. Imagine the benefits of 50% of the population being able to cooperate without prejudice toward the other 50%. What a massive transformation that would be. Society could gain so much. That's the prize at the end of the struggle, one greater than the sum of petty victories for either side.
    Beh, Orangey has a point. I think the difference lies in the responses Ive seen. Neither party are willing to work together but...not to sound like a 12 year old, but the MRAs started it. This is just my experience from being in both sort of online places, but feminists often seem willing to sympathize with mens issues. The internet MRAs im aware of only ever talk about women's issues to belittle and disregard them. Go check out r/MRA over on reddit if you want to see what I mean. They arent a hate group, but they are on the brink of it.

    I actually spent a while on reddit trying to interact with them, because I really wanted to know the truth of it. My most telling experience was replying to a thread of lists that gave the many things the MRAs would want to feature in their ideal world. I replied to the first list. Of the 12 world-changes listed, I agreed with 10 of them (One of them was to ban feminism as a conspiracy). I told them I considered myself a feminist and agreed with most of their points, maybe we arent so different after all? The only responses I got were arguments. They arent interested in cooperation, as they arent really interested in their apparent goals.
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

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