User Tag List

First 2345614 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 263

  1. #31
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,675

    Default

    Why do so many threads hating on feminism occur? I think they've got little or no influence beyond intellectual or academic scenes

  2. #32
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    ^Given that this scene is neither intellectual nor academic, I think you just managed to trash your own argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    I think you underestimate them a little. They will likely continue to grow in online spaces. What their perceptions/beliefs lack in terms of truth they make up for in terms of appeal. And they are surprisingly good at hiding their crazy in PR situations by putting on a more presentable public face.
    I don't underestimate their influence, merely their intelligence. We all know one does not have to be intelligent to be influential in this world, in fact, it's positively a disadvantage in many places.

    I would love to see a men's rights movement about men's equality, not about anti-women's equality.
    My understanding is that MRA is all about being anti-feminist.

    From wiki:
    The men's rights movement emerged from the men's liberation movement which appeared in the first half of the 1970s when some men began to study feminist ideas and politics.[5][1] Early men's liberationists acknowledged men's institutional power and saw feminism as a necessary movement to address women's unequal status. At the same time they stressed the costs of traditional masculinity and the harm of the male gender role. In the mid- to late 1970s the men's liberation movement split into two separate strands with opposing views: The pro-feminist men's movement and an antifeminist men's rights movement.[5] Men's rights activists have since then rejected feminist principles and focused on disadvantages of men and what they see as evidence of men's oppression.[5][1]
    The men's rights movement is generally understood as a backlash or countermovement to feminism.[6][7][8][9] The men's rights movement consists of diverse points of view which are hostile toward feminist ideas.[10] Men's rights activists believe that feminism has overshot its objective and harmed men.[6][11][5] They dispute that men as a group have institutional power and privilege[12][10] and instead see men as the real victims,[13][5] arguing that men are disadvantaged relative to women.
    Sounds like it might have been written by a feminist. But given the command of language of the average MRA, I guess that's unsurprising.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    XXFP
    Posts
    2,706

    Default

    Some make the claim that in all cases there is a clear "oppressor" and "oppressed" in all these situations, and furthermore that racism, classism, sexism, what have you, can only occur when the dominate does something to the subordinate.

    While I think it's important to see that there are 'systems' in place that reinforce behavior, as far as I'm concerned acts of prejudice, regardless of the source, hurt everyone. The only way to reach any equality that can be had is when all people learn to see through their prejudice.

    In this sense, I think men are subject to sexism as well, in ways that are pervasive throughout society. Especially because there is this binary concept of masculine or feminine, where traits in one effect the appearance of traits in the other. Women generally face more violence (especially globally) and assault, and are frequently seen as inferior in tasks where they are apparently plenty capable. These are reasons why I'd support feminism as a movement - there seems to be an obvious disadvantage.

    However, the danger of these movements is that they'd overstep their bounds or become unnecessarily adversarial to other groups. Some people seem to think that the only way someone can win is if the other person loses. The MRA seems ridiculous from what I've seen.

    That said, gender equality, or, better still, the end of gender prejudice in all forms, is something I'd rally around.

    Of course, many people have trouble with that concept, because there isn't a clear to team to "win." I hope this changes.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  4. #34
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    INxx
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    941

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Of course, many people have trouble with that concept, because there isn't a clear to team to "win." I hope this changes.
    This. Both feminism and internet MRActivism as it currently stands are guilty of this. Though MRA much more so. To some folks, its a zero-sum game. As long as people believe this, true equality isnt gonna happen.
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

  5. #35
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    This. Both feminism and internet MRActivism as it currently stands are guilty of this. Though MRA much more so. To some folks, its a zero-sum game. As long as people believe this, true equality isnt gonna happen.
    It is a zero-sum game. There is a finite amount of government and charity funds available for projects. Money used to open a shelter for abused men is money that is not spent opening a shelter for abused women.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #36
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,593

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It is a zero-sum game. There is a finite amount of government and charity funds available for projects. Money used to open a shelter for abused men is money that is not spent opening a shelter for abused women.
    The fact that domestic abuse affects many more women than men is what governs allocation of resources. Spend some money up front helping men overcome abusive attitudes, however, and the need for women's shelters will decrease.

    In the moment the economics may be a zero-sum game, but as more women (and other disadvantaged groups) are able to take advantage of the full range of opportunities in life, they will grow the pie by adding their creativity and industry, rather than simply fighting over it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #37
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The fact that domestic abuse affects many more women than men is what governs allocation of resources. Spend some money up front helping men overcome abusive attitudes, however, and the need for women's shelters will decrease.
    Is that a fact? I've seen studies that call this "common knowledge" into question. For example, women are more than twice as likely to be the instigator of non-reciprocal domestic violence according to this study.

    In the moment the economics may be a zero-sum game, but as more women (and other disadvantaged groups) are able to take advantage of the full range of opportunities in life, they will grow the pie by adding their creativity and industry, rather than simply fighting over it.
    Looking at abuse as a gender-specific problem will always fail because of the impact it has on children.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #38
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    INxx
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    941

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It is a zero-sum game. There is a finite amount of government and charity funds available for projects. Money used to open a shelter for abused men is money that is not spent opening a shelter for abused women.
    The finite amount of resources available from the government and charities has not been reached. Or do we all give as much as we can, or ideally should, to charities? Or could our governments not allocate resources from some other, less pressing area? The problem with MRActivism is that instead of saying "Hey, lets raise money to open men's shelters" they say "Hey, lets close women's shelters so we can open more men's shelters." Instead of using argument and discussion to raise awareness of the importance of men's shelters, and so gain support for them in addition to women's shelters (everybody wins), they spend all their effort attacking the importance and ideology behind women's shelters, in the hope of getting themselves a bigger piece of the zero-sum pie. The fact is arguments for the creation of men's shelters aren't being made. The public is not aware that funds are needed in that area. When the public is aware of that need, and yet still puts all their money into w-shelters, then you can call this a zero-sum game.

    I mean, Im not even being glib here when I say I would prefer it if everyone who needs this sort of support got it. We can agree on this, at least?
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

  9. #39
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Socionics
    INFj None
    Posts
    9,827

    Default

    I know women are just as violent and I believe we ought to offer services to male victims of domestic violence. I'm not sure they need specialized shelters for that purpose. I think women's domestic violence shelters are specific for their purpose is to keep their partners from hunting them down and killing them when they try to leave. I don't hear of women doing this very often, but maybe there is a reporting bias. I'd look at the stats if I had time.

    Edit: I'm aware women do shoot their husbands in their sleep and drown their children in bathtubs, etc, but I can't think of a case of them hunting down a fleeing partner to kill them.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #40
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    The finite amount of resources available from the government and charities has not been reached. Or do we all give as much as we can, or ideally should, to charities? Or could our governments not allocate resources from some other, less pressing area?
    Uhh, in the the US we already spend close to $1 trillion more than we take in every year and many states are on the verge of bankruptcy...so yeah...those resources are tapped out. Stories like this lead me to believe charitable giving is on the decline.

    The problem with MRActivism is that instead of saying "Hey, lets raise money to open men's shelters" they say "Hey, lets close women's shelters so we can open more men's shelters." Instead of using argument and discussion to raise awareness of the importance of men's shelters, and so gain support for them in addition to women's shelters (everybody wins), they spend all their effort attacking the importance and ideology behind women's shelters, in the hope of getting themselves a bigger piece of the zero-sum pie. The fact is arguments for the creation of men's shelters aren't being made. The public is not aware that funds are needed in that area. When the public is aware of that need, and yet still puts all their money into w-shelters, then you can call this a zero-sum game.
    I don't know anything about MRAs. I did a google search to see if any MRAs were trying to get women's shelters closed, but I couldn't find anything. Do you have any suggestions for search terms?

    I mean, Im not even being glib here when I say I would prefer it if everyone who needs this sort of support got it. We can agree on this, at least?
    Sure, and it would be nice if there was no poverty or disease either. But we live in the real world where there are limited resources.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

Similar Threads

  1. Guns ARE equal rights.
    By SpankyMcFly in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 294
    Last Post: 06-28-2016, 10:08 AM
  2. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 08-11-2013, 11:20 PM
  3. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 01-13-2011, 03:32 PM
  4. Catholic ban on women priests 'illegal under Harriet Harman equality bill'
    By Sniffles in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 126
    Last Post: 01-14-2010, 06:59 AM
  5. UK Lesbians Given Equal Birth Rights
    By 01011010 in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-01-2009, 04:02 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO