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  1. #211
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    That's certainly true for older generations.

    I'm arguing about people born on or after '85.

    While pursuing motherhood is something men don't choose, trends among young people are flipping the old model on its head.

    When you take into consideration all the folks who grew up in the old model, it will take decades for the balance to shift.

    For recent graduates and students, it has already shifted.
    Intuitively what you're saying here ought to hold true, but it's not really supported by the literature. There was one study that I came across a little while ago that indicates that one of the biggest reasons that men aren't matriculating at the same rate as women is that men face a much smaller wage penalty for not completing college, and so might not see the point in finishing or even attending in the first place.

    Another study shows that even when controlling for factors such as college major, occupation, and number of hours worked, women's pay was still 82% of their male counterparts' pay one year after graduation. This isn't even getting into the fact that the pay gap widens even more significantly as you begin to compare the salaries of men and women from previous generations.

    More women are graduating from college, but there are still disparities in career attainment that can only be explained by discrimination.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  2. #212
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    At least you suggested something.
    I try to refrain from stating the self-evident because I find it tedious.

    However, when in Rome...

    Which reminds me about your point vis-a-vis developing v developed world. You should check out the situation of women in Italy some time. Few people would suggest that is not a developed, Western nation, yet women are treated abysmally.

    I love Italy dearly. But she's pretty fucked.

    That might be true. The problem is that it's sort of a fuzzy cultural analysis and it's really hard to know what role it's playing.
    For you, perhaps. I don't find it much of a challenge.

    Oddly, people who don't see this issue as futile are apparently all male chauvinists in your mind, or at least that's the way you talk.
    I'm not sure what you hope to gain by persistently misrepresenting me. Retribution?

    All Life is ultimately futile. I tend to leave activism to those of a more sanguine temperament. However, I see no value whatsoever in claiming things are better than they are.
    It's like the only truly feminist thing to do is cry of doom and gloom and accomplish nothing.
    Others call me a feminist, I'm not sure I've done much to deserve that moniker.
    I'm not a true Scotsman either.

    To end on a more positive note: the world's happiest countries are consistently those which lead the pack when it comes to gender equality. Equality for women makes everyone happier/better off. One does not need to be a feminist to recognise the truth of that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #213
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Which reminds me about your point vis-a-vis developing v developed world. You should check out the situation of women in Italy some time. Few people would suggest that is not a developed, Western nation, yet women are treated abysmally.
    Mmmhm. The variance is extremely big. In southern italy, yes, most women are housewives. In northern italy...both young men and women face the same, absolutely crappy work atmosphere / possibilities and the same prospective decline during the next 20 years, as well as the same low salaries. I would not say that women, which means every single woman, are treated *badly* by your everyday italian man. The documentary shows no evidence for such a thing.

    (personally: I come from northermost italy, so my opinion is likely not relevant wrt the rest of italy. But I now live in Germany and the differences on a personal level are zero. They are only visibile at the level of central government)
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  4. #214
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I'm not sure what you hope to gain by persistently misrepresenting me. Retribution?
    You are truly the blackest and most accusative of pots.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    To end on a more positive note: the world's happiest countries are consistently those which lead the pack when it comes to gender equality. Equality for women makes everyone happier/better off. One does not need to be a feminist to recognise the truth of that.
    Okay, but how do they achieve gender equality? How can the achieve more? Any ideas?
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  5. #215
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Mmmhm. The variance is extremely big. In southern italy, yes, most women are housewives. In northern italy...both young men and women face the same, absolutely crappy work atmosphere / possibilities and the same prospective decline during the next 20 years, as well as the same low salaries. I would not say that women, which means every single woman, are treated *badly* by your everyday italian man. The documentary shows no evidence for such a thing.
    Well, for one thing, it suggests that (in some industries, at least) it is common practice to force women to sign a resignation letter, so that if they get pregnant they can effectively be fired without repercussion. This is what I meant when I said equality legislation (such as we have across the EU) doesn't necessarily mean women's actual status improves.

    The pay disparity is pretty shocking too.

    "Badly" is a question of values perhaps. From personal / female friends' experience, I would say that that sexual harassment in Italy appears to be more common than one generally finds in much of Northern Europe. (Though not as bad as in many other parts of the world.) One can put this down to cultural variation, but my impression is of a culture that tends to "value" women in very specific ways.
    These things are not unrelated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #216
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Well, for one thing, it suggests that (in some industries, at least) it is common practice to force women to sign a resignation letter, so that if they get pregnant they can effectively be fired without repercussion. This is what I meant when I said equality legislation (such as we have across the EU) doesn't necessarily mean women's actual status improves.
    Mmm. As I said, I come from a "sheltered" reality in terms of civil matters in the italian paradigm. The already-signed resignation letter is common for males too in certain contexts, usually ready for whenever there's a sudden drop in orders. I'm not condoning that, I just haven't really seen it happen so I can't comment. Therefore my reference to strong variation.

    "Badly" is a question of values perhaps. From personal / female friends' experience, I would say that that sexual harassment in Italy appears to be more common than one generally finds in much of Northern Europe. (Though not as bad as in many other parts of the world.) One can put this down to cultural variation, but my impression is of a culture that tends to "value" women in very specific ways.
    These things are not unrelated.
    Well, yeah italian males are accustomed to being more forward with females in order to at least get a date. There's a north-south gradient in this matter too, but the difference from northern europe is clear. On the other hand, I kind of sometimes feel like my northern friends are not really giving enough attention to their girlfriends. But, perhaps, those girlfriend would not enjoy more attention either. Hard to know. I don't have any experience with these dynamics in a work setting because...I never worked in an Italian office (I moved right after graduation).

    Italian women, however, typically have complete command on household finances, and are *generally* naturally considered the bosses in the household with respect to...everything. I'm not saying it's healthy - indeed, it would be better to have equality both in the workplace and household, and that is what young people are shooting for, in my experience. I am only saying that a balance is present, even though it's through a form of "disequilibrium".

    You should really not consider Berlsconi and his friends as representatives for the *standard* vision of women we have, IMHO.
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  7. #217
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The Australian Bureau of Statistics and Demographer, Bernard Salt

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Because its an idiotically trollish and entirely unsubstantiated claim, probably, which is sadly what we've come to expect from you.
    It's so idiotic and trollish that this claim is made by the the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS).

    If you access ABS and read their carefully gathered statistics, you will find women marry up in height, in age, in education, in income, in assets. And the number who marry down is negligible.

    But don't take my word for it. Consult a professional Demographer and Professor at Curtin Business School, Bernard Salt, by clicking on - http://www.bernardsalt.com.au/publications/man-drought

    And I take exception to being called an idiot and a troll by you. And I advise you that insults are against our rules and may lead to banning.

    Also by implying that everyone thinks I am an idiot and a troll is a classic form of group bullying, and really does deserve to be banned.

  8. #218
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Your threats are impotent.

    Your source is an "irreverent", "quirky" commentator who asks "is your workmate a wanker?"
    Sounds like a troll...

    You made 2 controversial and unsubstantiated claims. The first, that "almost all" women marry "up".
    Depending on your definition of "up", this implies that almost all women are "lower" than men. If you do not understand how this is trolling, I hold out no hope for you.
    If you are talking about height differentials - this is so trivial as to be unworthy of comment. Most men are taller than most women, it would be odd if most women therefore didn't marry someone taller. As for women marrying someone older - flip it around - most men look for someone younger. When it comes to wealth - men are usually paid more and they control more of the world's wealth, again, an unsurprising claim. When it comes to education, this is going to be heavily dependent on the age of the sample. Only in recent years have women had the access to education they now have.
    And your source, rather than supporting your claim, seems to be suggesting that many younger women choose to remain single. Therefore, your claim is unsubstantiated. In addition, "almost all" women do not live in Oz.

    Your second, still more unsubstantiated and trollish claim, is that this is responsible for domestic violence. By which you seem to justify violence against women by virtue of "almost all" of them being inferior to their chosen partner.
    Good job. Take a bow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You are truly the blackest and most accusative of pots.
    Black and proud.
    Okay, but how do they achieve gender equality? How can the achieve more? Any ideas?
    Move to Scandinavia?

    When did this become my problem to solve? Has anyone suggested anything in this thread? Have you? No and No.

    I have lots of ideas. Plenty of them would work. But where is the will? It's simply not there. As that programme points out, women's downfall frequently seems to be that they care too much what others, (in particular, men) think of them. And men, by and large, prefer that they be under the thumb. Men don't care what women think, they care about the opinions of other men (which is why they tend to pursue the identical standard of female "perfection" that exists within their culture - a status symbol, something with which to impress other men). And women don't really care what women think. So that even where they could seize greater freedoms and status, (and offer each other more support) they usually fail to do so, for fear of making themselves appear unfeminine, and by extension, undesirable. (Even a "slut" is still sexually potent and desirable.) Women are, on the whole, far more afraid of being considered undesirable than they are of being considered inferior. There are compelling biological and historical reasons for that. For most of human history, the only power women have been able to exploit, is their sexual power. Their utility to men. This fact saturates every aspect of every culture and is a perpetual reminder to women of their lack of native agency. That their purpose is to live for and through others and not in their own right. Women's ideas of what it means to be liberated, it seems to me, have broadly followed men's desires, rather than their own. On some deep level, women don't believe they deserve equality.
    I have no idea how to go about changing something so deep-ingrained. It's alien to me. As an INTP, failing to care what others think comes quite naturally. But how does one teach a bunch of (mostly) Fs how to stop caring? More single-sex schools would be a step in the right direction. They seem to give girls greater confidence and self-belief, which is key. There's a good (if ill-judged) reason why radical feminists used to advocate lesbianism (and perhaps still do, I wouldn't know), and it's not because "all men are rapists". It's because caring what men think is a massive obstacle to women asserting their equality in the West.

    This is not really a problem faced by other groups fighting for equality. It's unique. Which is why civil and gay rights movements have made so much progress, whereas the gender equality movement has stalled/regressed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #219
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    I don't understand what the problem is. Women evolved in the kitchen and men evolved on the battlefield. Women should just stay there and men stay where they are. Women are deviating from their forte and should get back in there immediately. The only place they should be going if they leave the kitchen is the bathroom. Toilet needs cleaning on occasion.

  10. #220
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    If you had evolved on the battlefield, I suspect your combat skills would be a good deal sharper.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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