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  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I feel a bit sorry for the guys in these debates. They just seem to be unable to articulate their case as effectively...
    I have pointed out that almost all women marry up. And this did seem to strike a nerve. Particularly as I went on to say that marrying up leads to our most common crime, domestic violence.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I only ask for an equal spotlight for men's issues.
    Male victimization is not a profitable sector.
    Men are actually held accountable for their plight.

  3. #203
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    How funny. These boys seem to think they live in a meritocracy.
    That certainly sounds like me, believing in the merits of socially successful people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Once again, I have to guess at what you mean since you refuse to write coherently. I'm assuming you meant "developed" and not "developing". That's your personal bias. I dont see any reason to restrict myself to your solipsistic worldview.
    It's the common trend of the whole discussion. It's not impossible to detect those and it makes sense to go with them instead of just railroading any topic with your own focus, definitions, and interpretations. I'd say that comes closer to being solipsist than minding the general context of a conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    It's curious to me that you seem to believe we do not live in a global society, and that woman are free of oppression as soon as they enter the West. Or is it your view that we shouldn't include ethnic minorities when we talk about women? Please. I'm not even going to bother to respond to that.
    It's not boolean. You aren't oppressed in one place and not oppressed in another, it's just a difference of degree. Do you really think women are equally oppressed in the US or the UK as they are in Saudi Arabia? If not, then you understand this concept and have nothing to jeer at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Then don't say it. I said we've been regressing in recent decades. Most modern feminists I've read agree with that statement. I suggest you read some.
    You assume a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Yes, we have rights enshrined in law. But making something illegal doesn't stop it from happening.
    Oppression now is far more insidious. And it saturates every aspect of our culture. For a brief period in the 70s, people embraced the idea that men and women might be, essentially, the same. That was far too dangerous an idea to persist for long. Now we are seeing a resurgence of all those antiquated ideas about how fundamentally, biologically, unalterably different we are. With all the associated nonsense about how that means men cant look after kids and women can't do science. Perhaps you haven't noticed this? Oh but wait, you have...you even complain about it...I guess you just struggle to join the dots....
    First of all, the part about giving women equal legal rights mostly happened in the early 20th century, not the 1960s or 1970s. The second wave was more focused on using the law to pro-actively fight de facto discrimination, thus laws actually specified women (and around the same time racial minorities) for protection. I'd say the second wave was also more focused on abstractions like awareness raising.

    The disappearance of those ideas was so brief that I don't think the word resurgence is even appropriate. As Cordelia Fine pointed out in Delusions of Gender, this is an ancient constant. You can always find older material from some socially recognized wise man explaining the inherent flaws of women. The mere fact that it's happening now is just a continuation of that constant. We've seen that conditions can improve even with that constant around. I would definitely wager, however, that there's less of it now than there has been in the vast majority of the past. The fact that I know there's all this bogus, sexist evolutionary psychology doesn't mean I've seen substantive, practical evidence of it having such a negative impact as to peel back the progress that has been made.

    What do you point to that is quantifiable evidence indicating womens' equality has gone in reverse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    By "some wage increase", I assume you mean the gender gap is narrowing. Perhaps it is. You refuse to support your claims with evidence despite, bizarrely, insisting the "onus" is on me to "prove" a negative...
    Are there more women in leadership? Let's see...4.2% of the Fortune 1000 CEOs. Steady on girls! Mind you don't cut yourself smashing that glass ceiling.
    20% representation in government. Where does that reside on your asymptotic curve? And before you go slapping Uncle Sam on the back, you rank 78th on that scale. Rwanda is doing much better. So maybe stop and think about your definition of "developing" for a moment...
    You didn't have a tough time doing the research yourself, did you? What you found is good enough for what I said. Low though it may be, it's better than it was. That's the whole point.

    As for Rwanda, something like womens' equality is a broad and complex concept which does not increase or decrease like some level tide. It has many components which will be at different levels but altogether could be said to be higher or lower on average. So considering that Rwanda has more women in government than the USA, would you say women are fairing better in Rwanda?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    As for excelling in education, so what? What good does that do us? Do you think the smartest / most educated people are the ones who pull the strings? How hopelessly naive...
    Do you think it means nothing? I guess if women comprised 70% of the senate you'd probably say being a senator is meaningless. You practically say as much in a later post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I never claimed the highlighted. I mentioned the idea of asymptotic progress, but nothing about how close to that asymptote we have come.
    That's what I tried to say, but the thought was apparently not even worth considering.


    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Few people will argue that things are improved now compared to 20-30 years ago. There seems to be little improvement in the last decade, though, despite the significant gap that remains between men and women in senior positions.
    You should try explaining that to Salome. Apparently, you should also explain it to most modern feminists, at least according to Salome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You know what's funny? Whenever females start to dominate a field, that field immediately becomes devalued. Predictable as clockwork. If we ever arrive at the position whereby men do the majority of childcare (I know, but suspend incredulity for a moment) you can guarantee that the status of that, genuinely, most important of callings, would be elevated to unimaginable heights.
    What do you think would be a solution to this?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    How funny. These boys seem to think they live in a meritocracy.
    The meretricious live in a meritocracy.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    IMO that's fascinating if it's true. Devaluing and elevating with the sole factor being the gender of those involved?
    Sure. It's called "pollution theory".
    Quote Originally Posted by wiki
    As women enter an occupation, this reduces the amount of prestige associated with the job and men subsequently leave these occupations. The entering of women into specific occupations suggests that less competent workers have begun to be hired or that the occupation is becoming deskilled. Men are reluctant to enter female-dominated occupations because of this and similarly resist the entrance of women into male-dominated occupations.
    (http://www.nber.org/papers/w8985)
    I recognised this while still in school, which was one reason for deciding to enter a male-dominated profession.

    You can see ample evidence in this thread, and in my "demise of guys" thread.

    When boys excel in school, the general consensus is not that school is failing girls, but that boys are just naturally brighter, especially at "hard" subjects (themselves elevated to the status of "difficult" because they have historically been favoured by males). However, as soon as girls start to excel to the point that they overtake boys, commentators suggest that it's because boys are being let down by an educational system that is now so easy that even girls can master it. The problem is that boys are just too smart to be taken in by education. Whereas stupid girls, incapable of creative or original thought - they are the suckers who drink the Koolaid of academic success. Yes, it's laughably childish and reactionary, nevertheless it's a clear, repeating pattern.

    When secretaries were predominantly male it was considered a reasonably respectable "profession", when women took over, it was denigrated to little more than "office wife". When most typists were men, it was said to be an occupation that required great physical stamina, but when women entered the field, this requirement was dropped - it can't require that if women can do it, right? We made a mistake... From the typing pool, women moved into the new fields of data entry and computer programming. In the sixties, when women dominated this emerging market, programming was thought to be a very low-skilled activity. Now that the field is overwhelmingly male, it has rediscovered its value and exclusivity. So we can see that it works in both directions. In every case, rather than re-evaluate the capability of women, the reaction has been to denigrate the work that they do.

    Then we have people like Lateralus, and the OP, who project their own sense of victimisation and "failure of the system" to meet their needs, onto "feminists" - those evil harridans who believe in equality and are at the root of all their problems.

    In some ways men are right to be afraid of women entering their professions in large numbers, because the usual result is that wages fall. Women thus can be said to have a toxic effect on the workplace - however, the toxicity stems entirely from society's profoundly negative attitudes toward the aptitude of females.
    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I have pointed out that almost all women marry up. And this did seem to strike a nerve. Particularly as I went on to say that marrying up leads to our most common crime, domestic violence.
    Because its an idiotically trollish and entirely unsubstantiated claim, probably, which is sadly what we've come to expect from you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Nitpickers.
    It's not nitpicking to criticise your false analogy. Although, by this retaliation, I see you are agreeing with my accusation of back-pedalling. That's fine. Metaphor isn't your forte.
    I suppose when you were a child and your mother told you not to poke the couch with a pen, you countered with "it's a pencil", and expected that distinction to make everything all right.
    No, but do tell us all about your about your destructive tendencies in childhood.

    We can argue about exactly where on the plot the present moment falls, but two things are certain: (1) enormous progress has been made, and (2) gender bias remains, even in the most progressive societies.
    If you are considering "the entire span of human history", then no, I don't agree that progress has taken a relentlessly positive trajectory, nor do I have your unfounded confidence that it will continue to do so, albeit with diminishing returns. There is no reason (historical or otherwise) to suppose it will. The overwhelming apathy of the vast majority of modern women (coupled with the growing antipathy of men ) will more likely result in an accelerated backwards slide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    ...[long post misrepresenting everything I've said]...
    I'm not getting into another of these tedious exchanges with you. Life is too short to waste time debating with sponges.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #207
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    It's not nitpicking to criticise your false analogy. Although, by this retaliation, I see you are agreeing with my accusation of back-pedalling. That's fine. Metaphor isn't your forte.No, but do tell us all about your about your destructive tendencies in childhood.
    Cute but ineffective attempt to deflect attention from your own statements. You are the only one calling my analogy false, but then you have a right to be wrong. One cannot backpedal from an assertion one has not made. Communication would be more productive if you would focus on what was actually stated rather than reading more into it just to have something to criticise.

    I agree with most of your comments in this thread, a good example of which is post 205 above (I was thinking of the example of secretaries myself). I would rather develop these ideas than have to waste time repeating myself and pointing out what I did not wriite.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    If you are considering "the entire span of human history", then no, I don't agree that progress has taken a relentlessly positive trajectory, nor do I have your unfounded confidence that it will continue to do so, albeit with diminishing returns. There is no reason (historical or otherwise) to suppose it will. The overwhelming apathy of the vast majority of modern women (coupled with the growing antipathy of men ) will more likely result in an accelerated backwards slide.
    See, there you go again. I never claimed that progress was relentless or unidirectional. I summed up some significant net improvements over many generations. We can examine the fits and starts, gains and reversals over the years and in different cultures/locales. That is an interesting question itself, and may help understand in what circumstances progress best occurs, but is separate from the point I made.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #208
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    If you are considering "the entire span of human history", then no, I don't agree that progress has taken a relentlessly positive trajectory, nor do I have your unfounded confidence that it will continue to do so, albeit with diminishing returns. There is no reason (historical or otherwise) to suppose it will. The overwhelming apathy of the vast majority of modern women (coupled with the growing antipathy of men ) will more likely result in an accelerated backwards slide.
    If you consider the entire span of human history then it's also undeniable that there has been massive progress for women. And whether you say it to me or anyone else, you've yet explain what quantifiable way women have lost something even in the past 20 years. You don't even have to cite a source, just say what it would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I'm not getting into another of these tedious exchanges with you. Life is too short to waste time debating with sponges.
    But it's just long enough for the rest of the peanut gallery, right? Tedious can mean "not easy" and that's what I'll take it to mean here.

    Ignoring everything else I wrote, I still think you should really tell all of us what you'd propose to do about gender inequality. You clearly have strong opinions and are very critical of most peoples' suggestions, so what is your solution to the problem?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If you consider the entire span of human history then it's also undeniable that there has been massive progress for women. And whether you say it to me or anyone else, you've yet explain what quantifiable way women have lost something even in the past 20 years. You don't even have to cite a source, just say what it would be.
    OK. How about the fact that most of them are expected both to work full time AND continue to do the lion's share of childcare/domestic chores? Working doesn't make most women's lives easier, it makes their partner's lives easier.

    What has been lost in the past twenty years? I could talk about the pornification of society and how that has contributed to a massive erosion in respect for women, and how it is damaging relationships and demoralising both men and women.

    Tedious can mean "not easy" and that's what I'll take it to mean here.
    Tedious means boring, dull, repetitive, pointless, a waste of time. But you may take it to mean whatever most boosts your self-esteem.

    Ignoring everything else I wrote, I still think you should really tell all of us what you'd propose to do about gender inequality. You clearly have strong opinions and are very critical of most peoples' suggestions, so what is your solution to the problem?
    lol. Give it a rest, spongey. According to you, we're doing ok, we just need to keep doing what we're doing, right?
    My solutions are far too radical for this audience. I don't believe the problem will ever be solved, because most people are content with the status quo. And if they are, then who am I to tell them how to live? That's not my style. Exposing bullshit is my contribution to this debate. There's plenty of it on both sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Cute but ineffective attempt to deflect attention from your own statements.
    I'll let others be the judge of that.

    I agree with most of your comments in this thread, a good example of which is post 205 above (I was thinking of the example of secretaries myself). I would rather develop these ideas than have to waste time repeating myself and pointing out what I did not wriite.
    For someone who is reluctant to defend herself, you've done rather a lot of it.

    Please, develop your ideas. No one is stopping you.
    I could have let you save face with your back-pedalling exercise and attempts at finding common ground. That would have been more generous of me.
    Alas, not really my style.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #210
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    OK. How about the fact that most of them are expected both to work full time AND continue to do the lion's share of childcare/domestic chores? Working doesn't make most women's lives easier, it makes their partner's lives easier.
    Hey, that's actually interesting! you're right about that. Now, when it comes to women having employment, that is of course a double edged sword, because it was in many ways a major accomplishment for womens' equality, but it is a problem if it isn't balanced out. Women fought for this right, but there hasn't been so much of a change in how men are expected to behave, apprently, so there's a problem. I could say a lot about that, but I wonder if there's a point. At least you suggested something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    What has been lost in the past twenty years? I could talk about the pornification of society and how that has contributed to a massive erosion in respect for women, and how it is damaging relationships and demoralising both men and women.
    That might be true. The problem is that it's sort of a fuzzy cultural analysis and it's really hard to know what role it's playing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Tedious means boring, dull, repetitive, pointless, a waste of time. But you may take it to mean whatever most boosts your self-esteem.
    Obviously my favorite passtime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    lol. Give it a rest, spongey. According to you, we're doing ok, we just need to keep doing what we're doing, right?
    According to me womens' equality is progressing at a slowing pace. I would prefer it to go faster, and the slowing trend is concerning. It potentially could go in reverse so we have to be wary of that. I just don't think it has gone in reverse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    My solutions are far too radical for this audience.
    Just say them! You've seen the crazy shit people say here. What could you say that's too radical? That's ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I don't believe the problem will ever be solved, because most people are content with the status quo. And if they are, then who am I to tell them how to live? That's not my style. Exposing bullshit is my contribution to this debate. There's plenty of it on both sides.
    Not much of a contribution. Your sense of futility seems to make the whole thing pointless. Oddly, people who don't see this issue as futile are apparently all male chauvinists in your mind, or at least that's the way you talk. It's like the only truly feminist thing to do is cry of doom and gloom and accomplish nothing.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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