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  1. #191
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    IMO that's fascinating if it's true. Devaluing and elevating with the sole factor being the gender of those involved? Fascinating logic if I may say so and a failure to see the bigger picture as well. I smell some inferior-Fi and inferior-Fe in there to boot.

  2. #192
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You know what's funny? Whenever females start to dominate a field, that field immediately becomes devalued. Predictable as clockwork. If we ever arrive at the position whereby men do the majority of childcare (I know, but suspend incredulity for a moment) you can guarantee that the status of that, genuinely, most important of callings, would be elevated to unimaginable heights.
    What you're implying here is nonsense.

    “We spend the first year of a child's life teaching it to walk and talk and the rest of its life to shut up and sit down. There's something wrong there.” - Neil deGrasse Tyson
    Is Neil deGrasse Tyson is also a sexist trying to devalue education because females are doing better? /facepalm
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #193
    Senior Member You's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You know what's funny? Whenever females start to dominate a field, that field immediately becomes devalued. Predictable as clockwork. If we ever arrive at the position whereby men do the majority of childcare (I know, but suspend incredulity for a moment) you can guarantee that the status of that, genuinely, most important of callings, would be elevated to unimaginable heights.
    ok. not true. apparently mothers have the hardest job in the world, and i only know one pregnant man: Thomas Beatie.
    Oh, its
    You
    ....

  4. #194
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by You View Post
    ok. not true. apparently mother's have the hardest job in the world, and i only know one pregnant man: Thomas Beatie.
    Feminists tend to view women as victims, so her opinion would fit in perfectly with mainstream feminist dogma.

    -DiscoBiscuit says the educational system hurts males
    -Salome says "uh uh, it's worse for females"
    -I say it sucks for everyone
    -Salome says I'm devaluing education because females perform better in school
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #195
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    You're absolutely right. I'm here to offer equal behavior. I think I'll develop a career, get married to a man because I find him obedient and sexually attractive, and spend my extra income on hookers and topless dancers because I can't figure out WHY I'm so damn unfulfilled in a relationship when I picked my mate for purely physical reasons instead of for personality compatibility, so having secret empty sex will certainly solve that problem...or not.

    Then I'll go play a round of golf when my third child is born and refuse to help with the housework, all while complaining those damn women are expecting too much from me.

    Sound good? Cool.

  6. #196
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Wait, males can get pregnant now?
    Your point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    US business culture isn't anti-woman, it's anti-family. It is ironic given how conservatives claim to be pro-family yet they support businesses doing everything in their power to disrupt family life under the guise of the free market. They clearly don't understand or appreciate the "race to the bottom" when it comes to wages and benefits.
    Of course it's anti-family. And the prevailing gender inequity transfers that burden primarily onto the shoulders of women. Rectifying this will require recognizing and questioning fundamental assumptions about the place of women vs. men in society at all levels.
    Last edited by Coriolis; 02-27-2013 at 11:45 AM. Reason: fixed quoting error
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Schools aren't set up to meet anyone's needs, except maybe early 20th century industry. Schools, in general, spend years teaching children how to sit still and think "inside the box".
    Schools teach children to sit still and think inside the book.

    This is because schools were set up to take the children out of the intuitive home and teach them the counter-intuitive skills of reading and writing.

    However at home now children learn to use the telephone, the television, the computer, the mobile, the ipad and iphone, all without having to go to school.

    And at the moment the content of these electonic devices is literacy, but this is an accident of history. And soon literacy will no longer be needed to operate electronic media. And school will become redundant.

  8. #198
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I know pregnancy does not take women off the job market for 9 months, but losing any time is detrimental. Couple that with the sorry state of daycare in the US.

    Edit: I know I've been ragging on conservatives here, but they're not really the problem. It's big business that is lobbying Congress against these rules. Big business isn't really sexist, it cares only about money.
    How about the fact that men lose more work time due to alcoholism, certain medical conditions, and other forms of absenteeism? The lack of good daycare is a problem for women only to the extent that women are still seen as having primary responsibility for child rearing. Business might care only about money, but the people in a position to hold business accountable, as employees, customers, stockholders, and community leaders, all too often still operate using gender-based assumptions and roles. These are the "social conservatives", and the business lobby knows well how to court their favor. The economic "benefits" of avoiding family-friendly policies can readily be repackaged as support for "traditional families" where all dependent care is the responsibility of wives and mothers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Christ. Back-pedlars.

    The line is much more erratic than you propose. I guess if you're simply mapping the gender pay gap, you might be right. Who can say? Given that none if us have an infinity within which to speculate.
    I am more interested in broader trends.
    Nitpickers. I suppose when you were a child and your mother told you not to poke the couch with a pen, you countered with "it's a pencil", and expected that distinction to make everything all right.

    I am considering the span of human history. At least in the west, women are no longer considered property of men. They may vote, run for office, own property, receive most forms of education and hold most jobs, marry and divorce, have authority over their own children, and increasingly, control when and whether to have children. We can argue about exactly where on the plot the present moment falls, but two things are certain: (1) enormous progress has been made, and (2) gender bias remains, even in the most progressive societies.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The numbers, it would seem, conflict with your assertion.
    My assertion concerns lifetime earnings. You cannot prove anything about that using statistics on 2011 high school graduates. If we revisit this population when they are 60, or even 40, we may see significant cumulative earnings disparity due to the types of career disruptions I mentioned, which affect primarily women. That is, unless things change significantly over the next decade or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    All of which I would argue is improving. There are many more female role models in scientific fields than in the past. If anything, I think males face more of a stigma from the general public when it comes to identifying a job with a gender (male nurses come to mind). And whenever a male wants to work with kids, many people get uncomfortable, like any male who wants to work with kids must be a child molester (unless its sports, of course).
    The highlighted just means that the number is now finite. As someone working in science, I can attest to the fact that they are still few and far between. The attitude facing men has less to do with the men themselves than the fact that jobs traditionally done by women were seen as less valuable or worthwhile. Why be a nurse when you can be a doctor? or a secretary when you can be an executive? or a teacher when you can be a professor? Of course, for years, women could make only the first choice in each pair. For men now to take these jobs is seen as settling for less, while women taking traditionally male jobs are seen as moving up. Another example of how gender bias limits men as well as women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I think this kind of cause would be a lot more sympathetic if it focused more on the actual issues and less on "pay less attention to women's issues, here's the real problem". I don't think many people are indifferent to male issues, but they tend to be brought up as a reason for ignoring female issues rather than a problem in their own right.

    Case in point: this is a thread about feminism and here we are talking about how young men perform more poorly in schools.
    The problem with education of boys comes more from the disfunctionality of (at least the U.S.) education system than any gender bias. Other studies show that boys actually get more attention in school because they demand it, partly through misbehavior ("boys being boys"), but partly also because they are just less reticent to speak up, more willing to risk being wrong than girls who are typically raised to conform, to please, to defer, and to question their own value. Our educational system serves many groups poorly in different ways, whether they be boys, girls, gays, gifted, special needs, introverts, immigrants, etc. One-size-fits-all education does not mean equal opportunity. As Randomnity mentioned, though, that is another discussion.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I feel a bit sorry for the guys in these debates. They just seem to be unable to articulate their case as effectively...
    We haven't had a cottage industry/ideology spring up around our plight to feed us our talking points for the last 40 years.

  10. #200
    redundant descriptor netzealot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I feel a bit sorry for the guys in these debates. They just seem to be unable to articulate their case as effectively...
    That is why I wrote the thread and others in this forum... topics which lack proper "weak side" representation (in terms of social stigma and the inability to express the truth of the matter). So far you all have done an excellent job of breaking down the key points of contention.

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