User Tag List

First 91718192021 Last

Results 181 to 190 of 263

  1. #181
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,489

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Sarcasm?
    Yes.
    I don't think its a tragedy for women to get to the bottom of discrimination.

    I do think that the obstacles facing adolescent and young adult males (and men generally) are given short shrift because we aren't as sympathetic in the current national narrative as women.
    I think this kind of cause would be a lot more sympathetic if it focused more on the actual issues and less on "pay less attention to women's issues, here's the real problem". I don't think many people are indifferent to male issues, but they tend to be brought up as a reason for ignoring female issues rather than a problem in their own right.

    Case in point: this is a thread about feminism and here we are talking about how young men perform more poorly in schools.

    There is this constant assumption (not necessarily by you, but in general) that improving the problems faced by one gender is always at the expense of the rest of the population, which is not necessarily the case. I think the school system could be improved for boys without harming girls, and I think the opportunities in senior management could be improved for women without making the system unfairly biased against men. And I don't think discussing feminist issues is incompatible with discussing male-specific issues (in fact there are many shared goals and overlapping ideals!), so long as each isn't being discussed as a way to shut down discussion of the other.
    -end of thread-

  2. #182
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    That seems encouraging. Hopefully it is reflected in other areas as well - those ratios seem reasonable in a field with fewer women, but my understanding is that even female dominated fields like nursing and teaching are male-dominated at the senior level, unfortunately (principals, nursing supervisors or whatever). The reasons for this are complex, as always, and while some of them are improving (ex: cultural attitudes about gender roles), others are not (ex: shitty paternity/maternity leave and other anti-family policies in conjunction with various sources of pressure for the woman to be the primary caregiver).
    They're male-dominated at the senior levels because of the WWII and baby boom generations. Baby boomers still hold almost all senior positions in business and academia. As those generations retire, so goes their views on gender in the workplace. I don't think everything will be equal once Generation X has taken over. It'll take longer than that for things to equalize. That's why I believe that when Generation X starts retiring and Generation Y starts holding most of the senior positions is when we'll see the crossover.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #183
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Enneagram
    8
    Posts
    13,880

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    ... Case in point: this is a thread about feminism and here we are talking about how young men perform more poorly in schools ...
    Absolutely well said. Young men are not performing to standard in school, and it is implied that feminism is the reason behind it by throwing that status out there in this thread topic. It is NOT always about the men. And it is not always at the expense of men that females do well. Focusing on helping women has NOT taken attention away from the men. On the contrary--men seem to be getting the same amount of attention as before, but they're now fussing more because they're noticing attention is being given to females. It feels like I'm watching two little children, where the older one is crying because the younger one is getting what feels to it like more attention even though the older one hasn't lacked for attention any step of the way--it's just not being coddled 100% anymore.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  4. #184
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I think this kind of cause would be a lot more sympathetic if it focused more on the actual issues and less on "pay less attention to women's issues, here's the real problem". I don't think many people are indifferent to male issues, but they tend to be brought up as a reason for ignoring female issues rather than a problem in their own right.
    People don't want to appear as weak and/or whiny. And in the US, people who cry "sexism" and "racism" are generally viewed as whiners (particularly because there are so many people who cry wolf). If you want to elevate your cause to that level of attention or higher, you have to be just as loud and you'll be perceived as just as whiny.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #185
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    I only ask for an equal spotlight for men's issues.

  6. #186
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,489

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    People don't want to appear as weak and/or whiny. And in the US, people who cry "sexism" and "racism" are generally viewed as whiners (particularly because there are so many people who cry wolf). If you want to elevate your cause to that level of attention or higher, you have to be just as loud and you'll be perceived as just as whiny.
    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I only ask for an equal spotlight for men's issues.
    Again, I think the spotlight would be easier to find if it was undertaken in its own right rather than through attacking feminism. This is not a men vs. women battle, and these kinds of issues are often shot down with inadequate consideration because they are often brought up in a discussion about unrelated issues, and the perception (right or wrong) is often that the men's issues are deliberately being brought up to distract attention from the women's issues. It's like going into a discussion about cancer drug development and shouting about how cancer isn't that important and that we should really be talking about AIDS research instead. You're not going to be taken seriously and you're going to alienate people from your cause, even if it is actually a really important cause.

    If it's discussed as the legitimate issue that it is rather than as a counterpoint to ideas like "men and women are not getting equal opportunities in the workplace", I believe it would be a more successful movement (and would certainly receive less hostility).
    -end of thread-

  7. #187
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Again, I think the spotlight would be easier to find if it was undertaken in its own right rather than through attacking feminism. This is not a men vs. women battle, and these kinds of issues are often shot down with inadequate consideration because they are often brought up in a discussion about unrelated issues, and the perception (right or wrong) is often that the men's issues are deliberately being brought up to distract attention from the women's issues. It's like going into a discussion about cancer drug development and shouting about how cancer isn't that important and that we should really be talking about AIDS research instead. You're not going to be taken seriously and you're going to alienate people from your cause, even if it is actually a really important cause.

    If it's discussed as the legitimate issue that it is rather than as a counterpoint to ideas like "men and women are not getting equal opportunities in the workplace", I believe it would be a more successful movement (and would certainly receive less hostility).
    I'm sure it would, but that's not going to happen any time soon. I'm interested to see how bad things have to get before this reverses itself. I'm guessing really bad because the men who aren't held back by issues that affect males, predominantly, will just sneer at those who are held back. Other males are just competition and the fewer of them, the better.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #188
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I think this kind of cause would be a lot more sympathetic if it focused more on the actual issues and less on "pay less attention to women's issues, here's the real problem". I don't think many people are indifferent to male issues, but they tend to be brought up as a reason for ignoring female issues rather than a problem in their own right.

    Case in point: this is a thread about feminism and here we are talking about how young men perform more poorly in schools.

    There is this constant assumption (not necessarily by you, but in general) that improving the problems faced by one gender is always at the expense of the rest of the population, which is not necessarily the case. I think the school system could be improved for boys without harming girls, and I think the opportunities in senior management could be improved for women without making the system unfairly biased against men. And I don't think discussing feminist issues is incompatible with discussing male-specific issues (in fact there are many shared goals and overlappig ideals!), so long as each isn't being discussed as a way to shut down discussion of the other.
    Excellent points.
    I feel a bit sorry for the guys in these debates. They just seem to be unable to articulate their case as effectively...

    Are boys being failed by the school system? Why do we say that? Are they performing worse than ever, or just worse relative to girls? It's hard to get at this data, because everyone seems to be uniquely obsessed with gender comparisons. In fact, the comparitive research I've seen shows that the default co-ed system fails girls. They do much better when educated in single-sex schools/classes. Boys don't show anything like the same improvement. In other words, girls are doing better than boys despite a co-ed system that undermines them, not because it is uniquely set up for their needs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    If it's discussed as the legitimate issue that it is rather than as a counterpoint to ideas like "men and women are not getting equal opportunities in the workplace", I believe it would be a more successful movement (and would certainly receive less hostility).
    I don't share your optimism. I've devoted threads to such problems, and they are met with hysteria and aggression from the Usual Suspects. Some people just like to grind their ax, no matter the topic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #189
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Excellent points.
    I feel a bit sorry for the guys in these debates. They just seem to be unable to articulate their case as effectively...

    Are boys being failed by the school system? Why do we say that? Are they performing worse than ever, or just worse relative to girls? It's hard to get at this data, because everyone seems to be uniquely obsessed with gender comparisons. In fact, the comparitive research I've seen shows that the default co-ed system fails girls. They do much better when educated in single-sex schools/classes. Boys don't show anything like the same improvement. In other words, girls are doing better than boys despite a co-ed system that undermines them, not because it is uniquely set up for their needs.
    Schools aren't set up to meet anyone's needs, except maybe early 20th century industry. Schools, in general, spend years teaching children how to sit still and think "inside the box".
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #190
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    You know what's funny? Whenever females start to dominate a field, that field immediately becomes devalued. Predictable as clockwork. If we ever arrive at the position whereby men do the majority of childcare (I know, but suspend incredulity for a moment) you can guarantee that the status of that, genuinely, most important of callings, would be elevated to unimaginable heights.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

Similar Threads

  1. Guns ARE equal rights.
    By SpankyMcFly in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 294
    Last Post: 06-28-2016, 10:08 AM
  2. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 08-11-2013, 11:20 PM
  3. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 01-13-2011, 03:32 PM
  4. Catholic ban on women priests 'illegal under Harriet Harman equality bill'
    By Sniffles in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 126
    Last Post: 01-14-2010, 06:59 AM
  5. UK Lesbians Given Equal Birth Rights
    By 01011010 in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-01-2009, 04:02 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO