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  1. #171
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    edit: of course, you can speculate all you like about how "the future will be totally different" but without evidence showing that the trend is actually changing (and evidence showing the opposite, in fact), it's not exactly....convincing. In order for the future to be better, the present must be changing, and there is little evidence to support that hypothesis.
    What? The "present" is changing. In the US, females make up a greater percentage of college students and graduates every year and that ratio has been growing for over 40 years. It is nearly 60-40 in favor of females now.

    The (public) engineering school I got my BS from had a ratio of roughly four males to every female when I started attending nearly 20 years ago. That ratio is below 2-to-1 now. There were ZERO female electrical engineering faculty when I was a freshman, now there are several. I don't know where the people doing these studies get their information, but my experience is that this gender issue has changed RADICALLY. Males are still nearly exclusively making the hiring decisions when it comes to new faculty, but that will come to an end soon because women are gaining influence in the department. I know my experience is merely anecdotal, but it is so completely the opposite of your narrative, I find it difficult to reconcile.

    You're saying no progress is being made and I'm seeing a huge amount of progress being made at my alma mater. This doesn't add up.

    P.S. Regarding my school, it is part of the state school system, so it's not like they were rejecting female applicants in favor of males. The entrance requirements were the same as all the other state schools, and the flagship state university has had more females than males since at least the 80s, if not the 70s. Females were choosing to not go to an engineering school for some reason. Perhaps they didn't want to go to a male dominated school with only 5000 students (90% of those engineers)? I have no idea.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Yes. Go do your own research. You're the one making (unlikely and unsupported) assumptions here, not me. As I mentioned, that was one example that I happened to be familiar with - I'm not doing a comprehensive lit review for you just because you can't be bothered to research the facts yourself.
    I'm talking about girls having much better outcomes from school on average, not about the prejudices of employers.

    The prejudices of employers certainly still exist, and not to the benefit of females. I'm arguing that that prejudice is outweighed by the greater percentages of female graduation and employment generally.

    I want to highlight the fact that our school system is failing males.

  3. #173
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What? The "present" is changing. In the US, females make up a greater percentage of college students and graduates every year and that ratio has been growing for over 40 years. It is nearly 60-40 in favor of females now.

    The (public) engineering school I got my BS from had a ratio of roughly four males to every female when I started attending nearly 20 years ago. That ratio is below 2-to-1 now. There were ZERO female electrical engineering faculty when I was a freshman, now there are several. I don't know where the people doing these studies get their information, but my experience is that this gender issue has changed RADICALLY. Males are still nearly exclusively making the hiring decisions when it comes to new faculty, but that will come to an end soon because women are gaining influence in the department. I know my experience is merely anecdotal, but it is so completely the opposite of your narrative, I find it difficult to reconcile.

    You're saying no progress is being made and I'm seeing a huge amount of progress being made at my alma mater. This doesn't add up.
    Few people will argue that things are improved now compared to 20-30 years ago. There seems to be little improvement in the last decade, though, despite the significant gap that remains between men and women in senior positions.

    The college acceptance ratios are changing, yes. And sure, "several" faculty members (out of how many dozen?) is an improvement over zero twenty years ago. However, it seems that there has been little evidence showing that in general, senior positions are becoming more available to women now than they were 5 or even 10 years ago. So the market being flooded with more female graduates is not automatically indicating that women will be more successful in their overall careers - the majority of the prestigious and well-paying jobs are still held by men.

    P.S. Regarding my school, it is part of the state school system, so it's not like they were rejecting female applicants in favor of males. The entrance requirements were the same as all the other state schools, and the flagship state university has had more females than males since at least the 80s, if not the 70s. Females were choosing to not go to an engineering school for some reason. Perhaps they didn't want to go to a male dominated school with only 5000 students (90% of those engineers)? I have no idea.
    Yeah, that's a separate issue (and of course similar female-dominated areas exist). It's certain that a number of factors are at play, including attitudes towards girls' math ability, perception and/or reality of sexual harassment in school/career, encouragement by parents/peers/mentors, presence and visibility of role models, gender roles/socialization, cultural ideas of "male" vs "female" jobs, etc etc etc. That's a bit of a tangent from the "career success" discussion, though.
    -end of thread-

  4. #174
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'm talking about girls having much better outcomes from school on average, not about the prejudices of employers.

    The prejudices of employers certainly still exist, and not to the benefit of females. I'm arguing that that prejudice is outweighed by the greater percentages of female graduation and employment generally.

    I want to highlight the fact that our school system is failing males.
    I 100% agree with the bolded, actually, and it is something that needs to be addressed by the school system (which is flawed in many more ways than that - it is mediocre for the average child, and can fail dramatically for the exceptionally gifted, children with special needs, and children who are very different from the others).

    My issue is that you went on to say that this directly translates into overall decreased career success, which is (at best) debatable. Certainly it would translate into decreased career success if all other career factors were equal. They are not. Therefore, boys doing poorly in school is not a counterpoint to women being underrepresented in senior positions, but rather a separate and also troubling situation.
    -end of thread-

  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    So the market being flooded with more female graduates is not automatically indicating that women will be more successful in their overall careers - the majority of the prestigious and well-paying jobs are still held by men.
    While the majority of jobs requiring a college degree (a much larger number than that of prestigious jobs) are being held by women.

    The over representation of men in upper management is reflective of the higher age of managers that creates a different culture at the upper echelons of management.

    They are already increasing their representation in management, and the shift will be complete once the old guard has died off.

    The prestigious jobs you're talking about are a much smaller slice of the employment pie than jobs requiring a college degree.

    Time is all it will take for women to gain adequate representation in the highest paid positions.

  6. #176
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Few people will argue that things are improved now compared to 20-30 years ago. There seems to be little improvement in the last decade, though, despite the significant gap that remains between men and women in senior positions.

    The college acceptance ratios are changing, yes. And sure, "several" faculty members (out of how many dozen?) is an improvement over zero twenty years ago. However, it seems that there has been little evidence showing that in general, senior positions are becoming more available to women now than they were 5 or even 10 years ago. So the market being flooded with more female graduates is not automatically indicating that women will be more successful in their overall careers - the majority of the prestigious and well-paying jobs are still held by men.
    Just looked at the faculty list on the school's website: There are 32 positions (it's not a large school), 7 held by women. Of the 10 associate professor positions, 3 are held by women. Of the 6 senior/"distinguished" positions, one is held by a woman. Looking at the names of those senior professors, 3 of them had been with the school for many years before I attended.

    I don't know how this looked 10 years ago and I know this is only the electrical engineering department, but the trend looks good to me.

    Yeah, that's a separate issue (and of course similar female-dominated areas exist). It's certain that a number of factors are at play, including attitudes towards girls' math ability, perception and/or reality of sexual harassment in school/career, encouragement by parents/peers/mentors, presence and visibility of role models, gender roles/socialization, cultural ideas of "male" vs "female" jobs, etc etc etc. That's a bit of a tangent from the "career success" discussion, though.
    All of which I would argue is improving. There are many more female role models in scientific fields than in the past. If anything, I think males face more of a stigma from the general public when it comes to identifying a job with a gender (male nurses come to mind). And whenever a male wants to work with kids, many people get uncomfortable, like any male who wants to work with kids must be a child molester (unless its sports, of course).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    My issue is that you went on to say that this directly translates into overall decreased career success, which is (at best) debatable.
    I'm saying more women are pursuing careers and graduating from college.

    Of people graduating from college and pursuing a career, I bet that the success of men and women graduating now (or in the last 10 years) is relatively even with the shifting demographics in upper management.

    However when one takes into account the success of all kids not just those going to college or pursuing a career, the greater numbers of women in college and in careers will outweigh the financial effects of gender discrimination.

    If seven boys have careers for every 10 girls it doesn't matter if a higher percentage of those boys end up in upper management.

    I'm conceding the fact of discrimination, though it is declining.

  8. #178
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    While the majority of jobs requiring a college degree (a much larger number than that of prestigious jobs) are being held by women.

    The over representation of men in upper management is reflective of the higher age of managers that creates a different culture at the upper echelons of management.

    They are already increasing their representation in management, and the shift will be complete once the old guard has died off.

    The prestigious jobs you're talking about are a much smaller slice of the employment pie than jobs requiring a college degree.

    Time is all it will take for women to gain adequate representation in the highest paid positions.
    I hope you are right. If you are, what a tragedy it will have been to have considered these issues thoughtfully and thoroughly in an attempt to determine the causes of these imbalances and improve them.

    Of course, if you are wrong and things aren't any better in 10 or 20 years, whoops, I guess it sucks to be one of the women who were forced out of that career path. Good thing they have a college education so they can compete with all the other male and female graduates for a minimal-paying job to pay off their thousands of dollars in student loans!
    -end of thread-

  9. #179
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Just looked at the faculty list on the school's website: There are 32 positions (it's not a large school), 7 held by women. Of the 10 associate professor positions, 3 are held by women. Of the 6 senior/"distinguished" positions, one is held by a woman. Looking at the names of those senior professors, 3 of them had been with the school for many years before I attended.

    I don't know how this looked 10 years ago and I know this is only the electrical engineering department, but the trend looks good to me.
    That seems encouraging. Hopefully it is reflected in other areas as well - those ratios seem reasonable in a field with fewer women, but my understanding is that even female dominated fields like nursing and teaching are male-dominated at the senior level, unfortunately (principals, nursing supervisors or whatever). The reasons for this are complex, as always, and while some of them are improving (ex: cultural attitudes about gender roles), others are not (ex: shitty paternity/maternity leave and other anti-family policies in conjunction with various sources of pressure for the woman to be the primary caregiver).
    All of which I would argue is improving. There are many more female role models in scientific fields than in the past. If anything, I think males face more of a stigma from the general public when it comes to identifying a job with a gender (male nurses come to mind). And whenever a male wants to work with kids, many people get uncomfortable, like any male who wants to work with kids must be a child molester (unless its sports, of course).
    No arguments here. I do think there's considerable room for improvement in both male- and female-dominated fields, and I think that over-attachment to traditional gender roles and expectations is a major culprit here, although by no means the only factor.
    -end of thread-

  10. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I hope you are right. If you are, what a tragedy it will have been to have considered these issues thoughtfully and thoroughly in an attempt to determine the causes of these imbalances and improve them.
    Sarcasm?

    I don't think its a tragedy for women to get to the bottom of discrimination.

    I do think that the obstacles facing adolescent and young adult males (and men generally) are given short shrift because we aren't as sympathetic in the current national narrative as women.

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