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  1. #151
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    Given the relative rates of graduation from college, can it be argued that the average girl in high school today is not likely to do better than the average guy?

  2. #152
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I for one, wouldn't attend anything called a "Slutwalk", with or without questionable banners. I heard about one held in India recently attended by women in their underwear. Do they really expect to be taken seriously with this kind of exhibitionism? I'm not a slut and don't consider embracing sluttishness to be in any way liberating.
    People say they've "reclaimed" the word as gays did "queer" and African Americans did "nigger". Balls. They've simply redefined themselves as whores rather than virgins - that age-old patriarchy-imposed dichotomy. Why can't they invent their own language instead of co-opting terms of abuse? It's like they are clamouring to invite derision.
    I find it difficult to take such people seriously, and if I do, as someone broadly sympathetic to the cause, then what hope is there of persuading the more entrenched?
    I'm not interested in fighting for a woman's right to dress and act like a retard. If that's what feminism has been reduced to, count me out.
    This is an important observation. I can understand that what a woman is wearing (or isn't wearing) is never a justification for a man's assaulting her. What Salomé describes here, however, is just another example of the kind of in-your-face actions that alienate far too many potential supporters, doing far more harm than good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Seriously? I think you are pretty divorced from reality if you think the position of women in society is as trivial as a socialite trying to get into a little black dress. Wow. Talk about white people's problems....
    Seriously. That socialite may never fit into her dress because she wants the quick and easy fixes, and is unwilling to make the fundamental lifestyle changes needed to keep and maintain a healthy figure. We as a society will never have complete gender equality (or equality with respect to any other distinguishing characteristic) unless we are willing to make fundamental changes in how we view men and women. Most people have no idea how deeply these gender-based assumptions infuse every aspect of our daily lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    I see a lot of talking trash and saying "wow this sucks" everywhere in life but I don't really see people saying "hey how about this gets changed." I don't have these answers and I don't blame people for not having them either. But as a group [could they be found]?

    If you wanna sit around and complain, that's not a bad thing, there are real problems and you need to talk about them to identify them. So you're doing that. But if that's not connected to actually wanting to do something or support something or change something, what's the point?* If it's not connected to a goal, then frequently it just falls apart into wallowing in my opinion.
    Yes, these answers can be found, but not by someone who is not even trying to do so. To tear down is easy; to rebuild far more difficult. One reason I generally succeed in addressing problems in my work environment is because I don't just point out the problem, I present a solution. People who content themselves with fault-finding tend to be process oriented, not goal oriented. To reach a goal and actually accomplish something, one cannot dispense with the rebuilding step.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Well, it's a combined effort. Change can come from small changes in everyday interaction if it's widespread, and organized movements can be groups of people on the internet deciding to just go out and have discussions with their friends on the topic, or making the commitment to say something when they see something wrong in a way that doesn't alienate the people who's perspectives you want to change. I don't know if it's so much about guilt or getting the support of any one group as it is doing what you can where you can to shape things. I can't fix congress by myself. Could a group effort that I was one very small part of do that? Possibly.

    But I'd agree, you have to accept compromise.
    I'm contrasting not so much the actions of individuals with those of groups (though my example can be seen that way), as a group with a relatively narrow focus vs. a group trying to be all things to all people, with the result that they bite off more than they can chew. Whether on the individual or the group level, it is important to identify one's realistic span of influence. If overestimated, you overextend yourself and expend your resources while accomplishing nothing. If underestimated, you accomplish far less than you are capable of.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Given the relative rates of graduation from college, can it be argued that the average girl in high school today is not likely to do better than the average guy?
    What is your definition of "doing well/better"?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    What is your definition of "doing well/better"?
    Higher lifetime earnings.

  4. #154
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    Well?

  5. #155
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Higher lifetime earnings.
    I predict females will start earning more than males, on average, in a few decades (2050?). Generation X was the last generation where males graduated from college in greater numbers than females. Once they start retiring, we'll see females overtake males. Males may still run the corporate boardrooms in 2050, but outside that arena males will, by and large, be doing the dirtier, lower-paying jobs.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #156
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Given the relative rates of graduation from college, can it be argued that the average girl in high school today is not likely to do better than the average guy?
    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Well?
    Only if the average girl commits to a career, or at least to consistent employment, and doesn't drop out of the job market for significant periods, or go on a "mommy track", or settle for part time/underemployment, or accept the other kinds of disruptions and devaluations that bring down the lifetime earnings of many women.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #157
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    How funny. These boys seem to think they live in a meritocracy. Dream on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This is an important observation. I can understand that what a woman is wearing (or isn't wearing) is never a justification for a man's assaulting her. What Salomé describes here, however, is just another example of the kind of in-your-face actions that alienate far too many potential supporters, doing far more harm than good.
    It's just so absurdly adolescent. You want to tell me how to dress? Ok, so I'll find the whoriest rags imaginable and make myself into precisely the unself-respecting banal sex object you think I am. FFS ladies. Grow up. Get a clue. That's not a protest. It's surrender.

    We as a society will never have complete gender equality (or equality with respect to any other distinguishing characteristic) unless we are willing to make fundamental changes in how we view men and women. Most people have no idea how deeply these gender-based assumptions infuse every aspect of our daily lives.
    I don't disagree with that part of your message. Where we differ is in our interpretation of how far we've come. In fact, you undermine your own position by claiming both that the changes that need to be made are "fundamental" but also that we are all but at our goal of full equality. Or perhaps you can explain how these ideas are not at odds?

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You could do more to explain what he apparently meant rather than talk about how I'm wrong just because I'm me.
    I don't know who "he" is. Maybe ask "him" if you're confused. And, in fact, you chose to challenge me, not the other way around. So quit poking the bear then playing the victim. I'm tired of that game and not of a mind to humour you.

    So, presumably a matter of opinion.
    Wrong. Again.

    First of all, it is important that I believe this discussion and most like it is focusing on the developing world.
    Once again, I have to guess at what you mean since you refuse to write coherently. I'm assuming you meant "developed" and not "developing". That's your personal bias. I dont see any reason to restrict myself to your solipsistic worldview.
    I don't think anyone is saying there's good progress for womens' rights in Saudi Arabia.
    It's curious to me that you seem to believe we do not live in a global society, and that woman are free of oppression as soon as they enter the West. Or is it your view that we shouldn't include ethnic minorities when we talk about women?
    Secondly, the way and asymptotic curve works, it applies no matter what part of the curve your at, it's a trend. It signifies nothing about the degree of progress in and of itself.
    Please. I'm not even going to bother to respond to that.

    Now, to say that there hasn't been any progress would be ludicrous.
    Then don't say it. I said we've been regressing in recent decades. Most modern feminists I've read agree with that statement. I suggest you read some.

    Yes, we have rights enshrined in law. But making something illegal doesn't stop it from happening.
    Oppression now is far more insidious. And it saturates every aspect of our culture. For a brief period in the 70s, people embraced the idea that men and women might be, essentially, the same. That was far too dangerous an idea to persist for long. Now we are seeing a resurgence of all those antiquated ideas about how fundamentally, biologically, unalterably different we are. With all the associated nonsense about how that means men cant look after kids and women can't do science. Perhaps you haven't noticed this? Oh but wait, you have...you even complain about it...I guess you just struggle to join the dots....

    Even between 1990 and now there's been progress, because there has been some wage increase, there are more women in leadership positions, more women getting master and doctorates and performing well in school, etc...
    By "some wage increase", I assume you mean the gender gap is narrowing. Perhaps it is. You refuse to support your claims with evidence despite, bizarrely, insisting the "onus" is on me to "prove" a negative...
    Are there more women in leadership? Let's see...4.2% of the Fortune 1000 CEOs. Steady on girls! Mind you don't cut yourself smashing that glass ceiling.
    20% representation in government. Where does that reside on your asymptotic curve? And before you go slapping Uncle Sam on the back, you rank 78th on that scale. Rwanda is doing much better. So maybe stop and think about your definition of "developing" for a moment...
    As for excelling in education, so what? What good does that do us? Do you think the smartest / most educated people are the ones who pull the strings? How hopelessly naive...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #158
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Only if the average girl commits to a career, or at least to consistent employment, and doesn't drop out of the job market for significant periods, or go on a "mommy track", or settle for part time/underemployment, or accept the other kinds of disruptions and devaluations that bring down the lifetime earnings of many women.
    It isn't sexist to pay someone less because they dropped out of the job market.

    Fewer people are having children. In a few decades the US is going to be like Europe: relying on immigrants to keep the population from shrinking. Women are increasingly choosing careers over having families. Men don't even have the option because evolution is sexist.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #159
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I don't disagree with that part of your message. Where we differ is in our interpretation of how far we've come. In fact, you undermine your own position by claiming both that the changes that need to be made are "fundamental" but also that we are all but at our goal of full equality. Or perhaps you can explain how these ideas are not at odds?
    I never claimed the highlighted. I mentioned the idea of asymptotic progress, but nothing about how close to that asymptote we have come.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It isn't sexist to pay someone less because they dropped out of the job market.

    Fewer people are having children. In a few decades the US is going to be like Europe: relying on immigrants to keep the population from shrinking. Women are increasingly choosing careers over having families. Men don't even have the option because evolution is sexist.
    Men do have the option; they just are usually unwilling to exercise it, just as women are too willing to exercise options that involve disrupting their career/job life. Responding accordingly to the choice someone has made may not be sexist, but the environment that supports certain choices and discourages others based on gender certainly is.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #160
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Men do have the option; they just are usually unwilling to exercise it, just as women are too willing to exercise options that involve disrupting their career/job life. Responding accordingly to the choice someone has made may not be sexist, but the environment that supports certain choices and discourages others based on gender certainly is.
    Wait, males can get pregnant now?

    US business culture isn't anti-woman, it's anti-family. It is ironic given how conservatives claim to be pro-family yet they support businesses doing everything in their power to disrupt family life under the guise of the free market. They clearly don't understand or appreciate the "race to the bottom" when it comes to wages and benefits.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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