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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We don't tolerate racial hatred here; and we don't tolerate anti-semitism; but we do tolerate the hatred of women.

    Why's that?
    Because thinkers like Pythagoras, Plato and Aristotle, and that overrated lunatic Nietzsche all advocated the idea of women as second class citizens.

    Apparently if people are good at math we should also listen to their social opinions. Yeah...about that.

  2. #122
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I was just watching a lecture by Gail Dines yesterday, I think it was. She thought third wave feminists were elitist and lacked concern for poor and minorities, while second wave feminists were the opposite. My own education on the subject is very limited, but I thought the lecture was interesting and informative. Lemme see if I can find it. Here we go:



    Anyway, she blames neo-liberalism and postmodernism for the difference in attitude.

    I do consider myself a feminist because I like not being property, being able to own property, women's suffrage, education, etc. We really haven't had that stuff for very long. I'm also in favor of wage equality and against discrimination based on gender, rape culture, etc.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I was just watching a lecture by Gail Dines yesterday, I think it was. She thought third wave feminists were elitist and lacked concern for poor and minorities, while second wave feminists were the opposite. My own education on the subject is very limited, but I thought the lecture was interesting and informative. Lemme see if I can find it. Here we go:



    Anyway, she blames neo-liberalism and postmodernism for the difference in attitude.

    I do consider myself a feminist because I like not being property, being able to own property, women's suffrage, education, etc. We really haven't had that stuff for very long. I'm also in favor of wage equality and against discrimination based on gender, rape culture, etc.
    I grew up in a place where the police still laughed and said things like "lady your husband can't rape you!" when I was a kid.

    That's why I am a feminist. Anybody who thinks it's not necessary anymore apparently haven't left their ivory tower lately. I've noticed a lot of people who say that feminism isn't necessary anymore live in these pretty sheltered middle-to-upper middle class eliitist leftist environments, so they're clueless about how the rest of the world who hasn't gone to grad school is still behaving.

    Thanks for the video. I'll be sure to watch it, but one of the DEFINING features of the third wave is that it did include working class women, minority women, and L/G/B/T community, and is also more sex-positive.

    Maybe she's just saying she thinks the younger women are more elitist? Because it's contradicting the very definition of third wave feminism as far as I can tell.

  4. #124
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    Guns and Femicide

    A study by the Medical Council of South Africa shows a woman is killed every eight hours by her, "intimate partner". So Oscar Pistorius is not a one off, he is part of systematic femicide.

    But not content with femicide, the World Health Organisation reports S.A. has the highest rate of domestic violence in the world.

    And the Medical Council of South Africa surveys show that one in four men have raped a woman with three-quarters of them saying they did so first as teenagers and half saying they raped repeatedly.

    And all this against a background of fifty men and women murdered each day in South Africa. Many are victims of the gun culture that sees more than six million registered firearms in private hands.

    And so we start to see the connection between guns and femicide.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Hmm.

    I think there is an active (or sometimes perhaps subconcious racist) attempt to ignore not just women but generally anyone of color. I grew up pretty well off white in Wash. DC, I've seen this first hand, (ie. not outwardly racist yuppie folks asking me about the race of a job applicant as the first question etc). I don't have a lot of experience with trans.

    But on the other hand, I think people stick with what they know and what effects them most, and I don't think that's (negative) discrimination persay. Mainstream feminists are white and privileged, so they talk about themselves. It becomes a problem when people think that's all there is, or if they ignore other groups.

    While misogyny effects all groups, there are different cultures behind it, and people don't always know how (or feel comfortable) to address issues across cultures. For example, my cousin lived in Mexico for a couple years on and off working on domestic violence, and while most people can see that there is a domestic violence problem there regardless of background, without understanding the particular workings of machismo and the connections to female purity (like the Virgin Mary) it's hard to get involved in that without stepping on toes.

    And there's always the concern about looking like you're trying to take someone else's struggle away from them.

    Of course, POC/lower incomes tend to be at a disadvantage getting into those mainstream visible discussions in the first place. When you add the effect of the 'liberal college girl feminist' (or whatever) becoming an exclusive clique, I can understand the resentment.

    I think the solution might take the form of a larger anti-prejudice movement that would cover a lot of these sub-issues. At least that's what I see. It all leads back to the dangers of making assumptions instead of examining the individual.
    Thank you for your reply. Definitely makes sense.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    That's interesting, and is probably true of second wave feminism, but that's not my experience of third wave feminists, for the most part, many of whom seem impassioned about racial equality issues and treat trans persons fairly.

    I almost want to suggest that this may be because I'm originally from the South, and many of my old friends who are third wave feminists come from a working class or lower middle class background themselves (in the South the socio-economic gap is much narrower in most places, there isn't as much a of a disparity between the haves and have nots, and even some of the have nots have front yards, and the haves aren't wealthy in the Beverly Hills sense of the word...being lower middle class is pretty much "normal" in many parts of the South, except for perhaps the biggest cities like Atlanta), so have no upper middle class Seven Sisters snooty feminist agenda, but even my ESFJ friend who lives here in California is similar, and she's actually my mom's age group, just after the second wave, and she says things like her four year old daughter can't grow up in a neighborhood that's all white people because that's not good for her. With her I actually see more issues of trying to overcome her own learned self-defeating, patriarchal supporting behaviors rather than being racist or lashing out at trans women.
    Really? That's great. How are they like for the most part?

    Yeah, I've been living in the south all my life. I live in a small town and practically everyone's a slut-shamer and I can see how the attitudes of those around me are contributing to rape culture. I agree with your description of it.

    I admire that, I like how she's trying. What does she try to do exactly though?
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  7. #127
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I definitely agree that certain demographics/factions of feminists can be very out of touch to the concerns of people of color, even women of color. But that's not the whole of feminism, and there are many other factions within feminism that are ready and willing to take them to task over it.

  8. #128
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    An article I really liked: "My feminism will be intersectional or it will be bullshit"

    http://tigerbeatdown.com/2011/10/10/...l-be-bullshit/

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleda View Post
    Really? That's great. How are they like for the most part?
    Hmmm a lot of my friends are from the Raleigh area of North Carolina and my feminist friends from there include women of color and a trans woman. I also know feminists who are working class from working as an exotic dancer earlier in life.

    In West Virginia people may be a little less "enlightened" than ladies from Raleigh, but I don't see a lot of bias toward the white upper middle class amongst the few feminists I know there (mainly my sisters and a few other close friends).

    Yeah, I've been living in the south all my life. I live in a small town and practically everyone's a slut-shamer and I can see how the attitudes of those around me are contributing to rape culture. I agree with your description of it.
    There's still very much a battle for this in the south.

    I admire that, I like how she's trying. What does she try to do exactly though?
    She was raised in an Argentine family where she was expected to take a certain role as a Latina woman (even though a "white" Latina, skin color doesn't really make a difference in the patriarchal structure of Latin culture, as far as I can tell), and she did at first, marrying right out of high school, she has four children, she's got that stereotypical ESFJ commitment to upholding her family...but as she's aged her relationships to men have changed. She went from a housewife and mother in her 20s, to a divorced waitress in her late 30s/early 40s, to the owner of her own business in her early to mid-40s. She also went to college when her three oldest children started growing up, before she unexpectedly got pregnant with her 4th child at 46.

    But she's very much progressed in her life from being a very stereotypical Latina woman to being an empowered, independent woman with education, her own means of support (even to a point where she was actually the main income earner at one point her current relationship, a stark contrast to the years she spent supported in marriage and on alimony by her first and second husbands) ...she still is very overly-sexualized though, to a point where even I kind of feel sorry for her. She's very attractive for her age (she's 50) but she places too much emphasis on what strange men, any man, thinks of her appearance.

    One of her daughters is VERY independent and responsible too, she raised her to be very independent, so with her I see a lot of the same issues I see in my own mother, making progress in her own independence as she grew older, but still clinging to the "why don't you wear make-up and fix your hair before you go out?" kind of thing.

  10. #130
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Both in what you've seen as elitism/racism/source of frustration and what you think the solution involves?
    Self-policing. Every movement promoting worthwhile change contains elements within their ranks that are obnoxious in one way or another, and do the movement more harm than good. The more effective elements need to bring these folks into the fold, or find some way to sideline them so they do not hinder progress. I am not counting here legitimate differences of opinion, which should instead lead to fractures in movements, or people leaving the movement altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I was just watching a lecture by Gail Dines yesterday, I think it was. She thought third wave feminists were elitist and lacked concern for poor and minorities, while second wave feminists were the opposite. My own education on the subject is very limited, but I thought the lecture was interesting and informative. Lemme see if I can find it.
    Such disagreements are not new to the women's movement. Even in the days of the suffragists, some were in favor of gaining rights for wealthy and educated women, who (often with supportive husbands) had the money and influence to make headway politically. Others chose to develop grassroots support among the much more numerous, if far less resourced, working class. Ultimately it took the war to precipitate results for both groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I definitely agree that certain demographics/factions of feminists can be very out of touch to the concerns of people of color, even women of color. But that's not the whole of feminism, and there are many other factions within feminism that are ready and willing to take them to task over it.
    Yes, and women from any socio-economic or demographic group should be able to get involved in feminism without having her whiteness, education, wealth, or anything else held against her. Only if she acts like a jerk should she draw criticism, just like poor, black, uneducated, or anything else jerks.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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