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  1. #31
    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I wonder if it'll ever be possible to whither away the state?

    I like that idea and see it as the final test of socialism, once the class war is over, once society has sufficiently advanced there shouldnt be any sort of government, constitutional or other.
    Wither away, as in having a country full of individuals who are content that way? Or wither away, as in having a country of people that are all mostly the same and content that way?

    I don't really understand how socialism expects to deal with competition, but yet have no form of government or rules. Where will the referee be when arguments and problems arise between people? Does that mean eliminating competition? Is competition always bad?

  2. #32
    respect the brick C.J.Woolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I wonder if it'll ever be possible to whither away the state?

    I like that idea and see it as the final test of socialism, once the class war is over, once society has sufficiently advanced there shouldnt be any sort of government, constitutional or other.
    That sounds awfully utopian to me. A utopian community can survive with a self-selecting population, but people born into it might not share its ideals. Then it starts to fall apart.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by C.J.Woolf View Post
    That sounds awfully utopian to me. A utopian community can survive with a self-selecting population, but people born into it might not share its ideals. Then it starts to fall apart.
    It is utopian.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    Wither away, as in having a country full of individuals who are content that way? Or wither away, as in having a country of people that are all mostly the same and content that way?

    I don't really understand how socialism expects to deal with competition, but yet have no form of government or rules. Where will the referee be when arguments and problems arise between people? Does that mean eliminating competition? Is competition always bad?
    Those questions have been dealt with by some really great authors, like GDH Cole, Erich Fromm, Robin Hahnel, Michael Albert (although I dont support everything the last two had to say) and I'm sure there's more.

    The government doesnt really choose to mitigate competition or conflict as it exists presently, it acts as a partisan actor in favour of the very richest.

  5. #35
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    ------------
    There are 5 countries in the world that don't have constitutions in the sense that the USA does. They are the United Kingdom, Canada, New Zealand, Israel, and Saudi Arabia. Only one of those 5 is actually the thing people fear a nation without a constitution will become.
    Is it possible to have a functional system that doesn't rely on a Constitution? Yes. But that doesn't mean a system that relies on a Constitution would remain functional without it.

    It's perfectly possible to write a new Constitution though.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  6. #36
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    The reason the Constitution is 'sacred' is that there are actually no hard lines or concrete rules in the world and we can't allow people to spontaneously change things whenever they get a hairbrained idea, and very few who would do so will recognize if their idea is hairbrained or not.

    The rule is supposed to be that you can only amend it. It may be out dated but at least it is stable. If you can change it whenever you like, just because you don't approve of it, then it is entirely worthless.

    The time to change it will come when it is more of a problem to follow the rule than to break it. At that point it should be changed.

  7. #37
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    What don't you get?

    If you as a citizen could change a law whenever you felt like it, there would be no point to it then, would it? Everything would be allowed. If something got in your way, you could change it.

    The same principle applies to lawmakers as well. Even when there's no strict constitution they must follow precedent for law to be effective.

    If we throw it away now then we can throw it away whenever. The point is to have some sort of thing that cannot be easily thrown away, so to give it an actually enforceable effect.

  8. #38
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    So you're talking about changing laws, not the constitution, i.e. the thing that is "worthless if we can change it whenever we feel like because we don't approve?"
    The Constitution is a form of law. So I am talking about both and all of them.

    The Constitution can be changed just like anything else, but it should take some deep shit to get to that point. And honestly, can we really trust anyone to make up a new one at this point in time?

    If they're screwing up what we already have, do you really trust them to come up with something new?

  9. #39
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    If by changed you mean amended, then yes, there are provisions in the constitution for amendment. There is no provision in the constitution for chucking the whole thing out the window and starting from scratch, though.
    That's correct. "No provision" does not mean "can't be done" though.

    There's also no provision for cherry picking the good stuff like this guy is calling for in the article. We don't work that way.

    Other nations which have uncodified constitutions, such as the UK, still have unwritten traditions that are followed. That works well over there I suppose, but here it does not because we are very much by the book. If it's not written then it's not anything.

  10. #40
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Other nations which have uncodified constitutions, such as the UK, still have unwritten traditions that are followed. That works well over there I suppose, but here it does not because we are very much by the book. If it's not written then it's not anything.
    Another reason why it probably doesn't work is age. We don't have a sense of tradition. America is a country founded on symbols and ideals rather than tradition. And the reverence for symbols goes to back to the beginning, I think. It's not a recent thing. I remember reading about the war of 1812, and when the British entered the capitol, (then first lady) Dolly Madison's first thought was to take down a mere portrait of George Washington in her house for safe keeping, afraid it'd signal the end of the Republic itself if it was looted. Washington died just years earlier, and already his successors were holding on to whatever symbols they could.

    edit: If I was to relate this all to typology (), there's probably more Ni than Si going on in all of this.

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