User Tag List

First 3111213

Results 121 to 129 of 129

  1. #121
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    8,263

    Default

    When it comes to the welfare of these people, the only thing relevant to me is a solution. At least ancient societies, cruel as they were sometimes, had a solution. Greek provinces killed "defective" children at birth. Nomadic tribes have been known to take the elderly off their shoulders and left them for dead as the rest of the tribe moved on. We're a resource rich nation, and unlike nomads constantly on the lookout for their daily bread, we don't have to do that. We have the infrastructure and medical knowledge to provide some of the disabled a decent quality of life. There are many solutions to treat people, like never before. We can also go the other route and put a bullet in their heads. At least that's a "solution", and we can move on and brand ourselves as the cold, darwinian bastards that we are. But to have some arbritray limit on what "government" can do is a cop out. It's doing the same thing as leaving people for dead, but not wanting to admit it. It's a passive solution at best. Instead of putting a bullet in their heads, you just let them fester in the streets. Of course, some of those will be treated by private organizations and churches, but it hasn't exactly worked out all that well.

  2. #122
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    When it comes to the welfare of these people, the only thing relevant to me is a solution.

    But to have some arbritray limit on what "government" can do is
    Means are usually more important than ends, in the long-term.

    ....a means of protecting electoral minorities and dissidents (i.e. all of us, at some point), while ensuring accountability to the majority.

    I'm not trying to 'cop out' from making a difficult choice, I'm saying welfare issues are an area where democratic choice is the most appropriate means of reaching solutions (the possible number of which are effectively infinite, not limited to two dichotomous choices).

  3. #123
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ILI Te
    Posts
    1,387

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    But to have some arbritray limit on what "government" can do is a cop out. It's doing the same thing as leaving people for dead, but not wanting to admit it. It's a passive solution at best. Instead of putting a bullet in their heads, you just let them fester in the streets. Of course, some of those will be treated by private organizations and churches, but it hasn't exactly worked out all that well.
    The US Constitution limits the federal government, not state governments. "Government" can still help people out.
    You lose.

    _______

    RCOEI
    Melancholic-Choleric
    Respectful Leader

    Johari Window|Nohari Window

  4. #124
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
    Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
    William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
    Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!

  5. #125
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,911

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Means are usually more important than ends, in the long-term.
    I disagree with you on that at the most fundamental philosophical level.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    ....a means of protecting electoral minorities and dissidents (i.e. all of us, at some point), while ensuring accountability to the majority.
    We kind of come back to the question of how much this practically manifests, though. The USA was one of the last countries to ban slavery. The USA interred its Japanese citizens, etc..

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
    Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
    William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
    Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!
    Okay, but what about non-constitutional law?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  6. #126
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Proposing to abandon the constitution is an idea so shortsighted I can barely fit it in my head.

  7. #127
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,911

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Proposing to abandon the constitution is an idea so shortsighted I can barely fit it in my head.
    How about answering the question and elaborating?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  8. #128
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,661

    Default

    I do think that if the learning which has or should have taken place in the interim period between the drafting of the consititution and now should be considered.

    There's a lot of that learning which suggests that fidelity to the constitution is great but I'm sure there are new insights available which have come about as a consequence of discovering the oppressive side of some traditional practices.

    That said I cant see how any revision of the constitution at this stage by a liberal progressive lobby in the shape it exists today would be anything more than a kind of amalgam of fragmented minority and fringe agendas, it'd probably provide no satisfaction to anyone, act as a constant reminder to historic wrongs rather than fresh or contemporaneous conditions and contain all sorts of disproportionality in its considerations.

    In sort it'd be as much a mess as the crazy fiscal conservatives and libertarians who interpret the constitution any way so much as it means tax cuts for the richest or sticking it to poor schmucks who're out of work.

  9. #129
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    3,705

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I disagree with you on that at the most fundamental philosophical level.
    Many people do.....but I'm firmly convinced that the means and philosophical justification used towards achieving any specific end tends to have long-term consequences affecting multitudes of other issues. For example, shamelessly and overtly violating the rule of law to achieve a less than exceptional 'utilitarian'* end makes future 'transgressions' more likely, and for lower and lower stakes.

    *As defined either by democratic vote or the discretion of authority figures.

Similar Threads

  1. Taking it again from the top: Root defintions of the functions
    By Eric B in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 11-25-2017, 04:55 PM
  2. George McFly from "Back to the future"
    By Malcontent in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 04-08-2011, 11:21 AM
  3. Taking Communism away from the Communists: The Origins of Modern American Liberalism
    By Sniffles in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 05-15-2009, 01:12 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO