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  1. #1
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Default For 40th "anniversary" pro-abortion movement shoots itself in the foot

    First there was this creepy video promoted by the center for reproduction rights



    Then this columnist for Salon put out an absolutely horrifying article entitled So What if Abortion Ends Life? It's pretty much in Peter Singer territory.

    Here’s the complicated reality in which we live: All life is not equal.

    ...

    But we make choices about life all the time in our country. We make them about men and women in other nations. We make them about prisoners in our penal system.

    ...

    Yet a fetus can be a human life without having the same rights as the woman in whose body it resides. She’s the boss. Her life and what is right for her circumstances and her health should automatically trump the rights of the non-autonomous entity inside of her. Always.

    ...

    My belief that life begins at conception is mine to cling to. And if you believe that it begins at birth, or somewhere around the second trimester, or when the kid finally goes to college, that’s a conversation we can have, one that I hope would be respectful and empathetic and fearless. We can’t have it if those of us who believe that human life exists in utero are afraid we’re somehow going to flub it for the cause. In an Op-Ed on “Why I’m Pro-Choice” in the Michigan Daily this week, Emma Maniere stated, quite perfectly, that “Some argue that abortion takes lives, but I know that abortion saves lives, too."She understands that it saves lives not just in the most medically literal way, but in the roads that women who have choice then get to go down, in the possibilities for them and for their families. And I would put the life of a mother over the life of a fetus every single time — even if I still need to acknowledge my conviction that the fetus is indeed a life. A life worth sacrificing.


    http://www.salon.com/2013/01/23/so_w...ion_ends_life/



    It's interesting to note the progression of rhetoric used by pro-abortionists. First, the child was non-human then a non-person and now a non-autonomous entity.

    I'm pretty sure in the past I've heard others use the argument that a class of humans were not considered autonomous because of reliance on a naturally superior class of humans and thus denied equal rights.

    Some people have a very short memory.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
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  2. #2
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    That's nothing I celebrated by clubbing newborns and wearing their skins as a coat.

    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  3. #3
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    ^
    Glad to see the spirit of Margaret Sanger is alive and well.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #4
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    It's interesting to note the progression of rhetoric used by pro-abortionists. First, the child was non-human then a non-person and now a non-autonomous entity.

    I'm pretty sure in the past I've heard others use the argument that a class of humans were not considered autonomous because of reliance on a naturally superior class of humans and thus denied equal rights.

    Some people have a very short memory.
    Which one of us is truly and entirely autonomous? It is all a matter of degree. I would assume that someone who opposes the viewpoint presented in the reference also opposes capital punishment, health care rationed by ability to pay, and all forms of warfare, since each of these takes lives from all portions of the autonomy spectrum.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #5
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    The fact that fetuses are non-autonomous entities is pretty much a physiological reality. I guess you could try taking one on a stroll some time. Tell me how that goes.

    Your allusion to previous civil rights battles is... poor. Fetuses literally can't live outside of the mother (though we're getting better and better with incubation). While trapped inside this one place, they can't really do much. They can't see the world, and they can't talk to us. The science is also pretty clear that while they have some sort of a mind after certain stages, it's not a particularly profound one, and it is of course essentially devoid of experiences.

    To suggest that it might be hard to tell the difference between fetuses and women or black people in terms of knowing where to draw a line is something I find at least mildly offensive.

    EDIT: I just want to add that I'm amused by the use of Peter Singer as some sort of extreme and scary boundary. I can't say he really scares me.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #6
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    That's nothing I celebrated by clubbing newborns and wearing their skins as a coat.
    Damn you and all the other pro-abortionists out there.

    Everyone should have an abortion before breakfast you know. It's good for your health.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #7
    Senior Member Beargryllz's Avatar
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    I don't think there is such a thing as a pro-abortion movement

    How can a non-entity shoot itself in the foot?

    In order to do so, it must first exist

  8. #8
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Which one of us is truly and entirely autonomous? It is all a matter of degree. I would assume that someone who opposes the viewpoint presented in the reference also opposes capital punishment, health care rationed by ability to pay, and all forms of warfare, since each of these takes lives from all portions of the autonomy spectrum.
    My point wasn't that the unborn are autonomous, but that it is a poor standard to base rights on in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The fact that fetuses are non-autonomous entities is pretty much a physiological reality. I guess you could try taking one on a stroll some time. Tell me how that goes.
    See my comments on autonomy above.

    Your allusion to previous civil rights battles is... poor. Fetuses literally can't live outside of the mother (though we're getting better and better with incubation). While trapped inside this one place, they can't really do much. They can't see the world, and they can't talk to us. The science is also pretty clear that while they have some sort of a mind after certain stages, it's not a particularly profound one, and it is of course essentially devoid of experiences.
    You are using the same rationale. Your differentiation is just a matter of degrees.

    To suggest that it might be hard to tell the difference between fetuses and women or black people in terms of knowing where to draw a line is something I find at least mildly offensive.
    How is it offensive?

    EDIT: I just want to add that I'm amused by the use of Peter Singer as some sort of extreme and scary boundary. I can't say he really scares me.
    Sooooooo you're down with simultaneously allowing parents to slit the throats of their one month old children and giving right to chimps?

    Moreover, you're not willing to recognize that's on the extreme side of these issues?

    What would be extreme?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beargryllz View Post
    I don't think there is such a thing as a pro-abortion movement

    How can a non-entity shoot itself in the foot?

    In order to do so, it must first exist
    I thought somebody would complain about my semantics, but I didn't expect a silly argument like this?
    The OP contains clear examples of people who view abortions as potentially desirable and beneficial.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #9
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    My point wasn't that the unborn are autonomous, but that it is a poor standard to base rights on in the first place.
    It is poor, because of what I mentioned: no one of us is truly autonomous. If the only way someone can live is to be sustained by another person's body, however, that sustainment must always be voluntary, and never forced or coerced, any more than we can force someone to donate a kidney just because he is a perfect match to the intended recipient.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I thought somebody would complain about my semantics, but I didn't expect a silly argument like this?
    The OP contains clear examples of people who view abortions as potentially desirable and beneficial.
    It is not silly. Calling people who want abortion to remain safe and legal "pro-abortion" is about as accurate as calling people who favor eliminating welfare entitlements as "pro-poverty". Abortion is widely recognized as a difficult option of last resort, even among supporters of its legality. In fact, a common refrain is for it to remain safe, legal, and rare.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #10
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It is poor, because of what I mentioned: no one of us is truly autonomous. If the only way someone can live is to be sustained by another person's body, however, that sustainment must always be voluntary, and never forced or coerced, any more than we can force someone to donate a kidney just because he is a perfect match to the intended recipient.
    That's a potential argument for a rape exception, but not an argument against an abortion ban altogether. Common law countries already recognize that a person who voluntarily takes on a life maintaining responsibility is responsible for the duration of their contact with that person. So a person isn't held responsible for murder if they sit and watch a person drown even if they have an innertube next to them. However, if they toss the innertube to the drowning person and then subsequently pop it and the person drowns then they are accountable for murder. People who voluntarily take on a responsibility are held to a higher standard of care. Conception is a foreseeable result of any voluntary normal sex act between a man and a woman (regardless of the use of other forms of contraception) and thus bares with it the responsibility to carry the child to birth.


    It is not silly. Calling people who want abortion to remain safe and legal "pro-abortion" is about as accurate as calling people who favor eliminating welfare entitlements as "pro-poverty". Abortion is widely recognized as a difficult option of last resort, even among supporters of its legality. In fact, a common refrain is for it to remain safe, legal, and rare.
    That's an idiotic refrain. If having an abortion is safe then why would we as a broader society care whether it was rare or not?
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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