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  1. #41
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    My point wasn't that the unborn are autonomous, but that it is a poor standard to base rights on in the first place.

    See my comments on autonomy above.
    What is a good standard?
    I think at least one credit to basing it on autonomy is that the lack of autonomy means it is absolutely the mother's business. There's no way you can guarantee protection against a fetus without imposing on the being the fetus is dependent on. The result is that there's practically no option that satisfies individuals rights if you consider a fetus an individual deserving of such rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You are using the same rationale. Your differentiation is just a matter of degrees.
    This isn't clear to me. The same rationale as what?


    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    How is it offensive?
    To imply that sufficiently differentiating fetuses from women and black people for the purposes of personal treatment is somehow difficult or ambiguous seems condescending to women and black people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Sooooooo you're down with simultaneously allowing parents to slit the throats of their one month old children and giving right to chimps?
    Well, he's a utilitarian. So am I. The main differences stem from him being negative and myself being positive, but not of those differences result in my finding him frightening or offensive. Singer doesn't dance around the issues with silly definition games and instead comes right out and says that aborting a fetus is killing an innocent human being, but we can't necessarily assume that it must therefore be a bad thing to do. So he weighs his considerations on the matter of the possession of awareness. Now, this gets into problematic gradualism just like deciding when life is officially human. I presume he looks for to science clearing that up a bit. Given his position, though, it's hard to understand why he's potentially okay with infanticide. The main reason I'm not is that there's a practical convenience to drawing a line, and there's just a whole ton of practical conveniences in drawing the line at birth. Of course, I think there's a time and place for everything.

    Regarding chimps, in the legal sense of the concept of rights, I'd be down with extending rights to great apes. Do I think an adult chimpanzee has more awareness, feeling, and experience than a human fetus? Without a doubt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Moreover, you're not willing to recognize that's on the extreme side of these issues?
    It depends on which kind of extreme you mean. I supposed it's extreme in terms of what is popular and common in peoples' discourse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    What would be extreme?
    I guess H. G. Wells style eugenics creeps into my realm of discomfort.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #42
    i love skylights's Avatar
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  3. #43
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Is pre-developed life more important than developed life?
    Like I said, that's a matter of personal belief, regardless of position.

    For me, the entirety of a pre-developed life is more important than nine months of a developed life that already had the capacity to prevent pregnancy with approximately 99.9% confidence.

  4. #44
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Like I said, that's a matter of personal belief, regardless of position.

    For me, the entirety of a pre-developed life is more important than nine months of a developed life that already had the capacity to prevent pregnancy with approximately 99.9% confidence.
    Assuming we're talking only about abortions that are freely given to people... Where do you get the notion it is always preventable? Are you suggesting people should merely not have sex unless the intent is to reproduce? This is, probably, the most sound choice.. but it breeches into people's personal lives and values and beliefs.. which is already a bit messy with this, so to keep it simple.. Who gets to decide if it was preventable or not? As far as I can tell, way more than <1% of pregnancies were not preventable.

    Does someone who committed incest qualify? Does a rape resulting in pregnancy qualify? Threats to the mother's life medically? What if their family will murder them, excommunicate them, and so on and so forth if they found out? Do those people qualify? Or what about people who were using birth control on BOTH ends and they STILL ended up with a baby? (Happened to a couple people I know, so it's always an interesting one to see.. they all kept them, don't worry.) And do the doctors have to deal with all of that personal drama in the meanwhile? Do they get the blame if properly used birth control is in place? Are they going to be the ones handing out the judgments? Or will it be people who may not ever have to be in those situations? A jury of peers? How long will this process take to set up? Who is going to pay for all of these babies that are being born? The same people that complain about the elderly, the sick, the welfare status, and children that currently exist? Are we going to get more government funding to help support these kids and ensure they're educated, functioning members of society?
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  5. #45
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    There has been a lot of focus on the moral value of abortion here, so I'd like to remind everyone that banning abortion is about futile as banning suicide. Even if you could convince everyone that it is wrong, there's not much the law could do about it.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #46
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Are you suggesting people should merely not have sex unless the intent is to reproduce?
    No, and the two of us have actually already discussed this: I'm saying that when properly used, modern contraception is extremely reliable, so that 99%+ of the time, pregnancy resulting from consensual sex is preventable. And yes, I support abortion in cases of rape, incest, and to save the life of the mother. I even support the 'morning-after' pill, as the most reliable methods of contraception will sometimes terminate a pregnancy between conception and implantation (making the morning-after pill functionally similar to them) precisely because I seek to balance the competing rights of mother and child.

  7. #47
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    I wish I had mo' hands, so I could give this thread fo' thumbs down.

  8. #48
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Must be taking a page from the anti-choice playbook.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  9. #49
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    I understand the number of spontaneous abortions exceeds the number of induced abortions.

    Surely this alters the moral calculus?

  10. #50
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    No, and the two of us have actually already discussed this: I'm saying that when properly used, modern contraception is extremely reliable, so that 99%+ of the time, pregnancy resulting from consensual sex is preventable. And yes, I support abortion in cases of rape, incest, and to save the life of the mother. I even support the 'morning-after' pill, as the most reliable methods of contraception will sometimes terminate a pregnancy between conception and implantation (making the morning-after pill functionally similar to them) precisely because I seek to balance the competing rights of mother and child.
    The thing I am trying to state here is.. who's business is it if the woman was raped or not? Everyone in our country is innocent until proven guilty.. convictions of even minor offenses take months. There isn't that kind of time to determine if someone was genuinely raped or not before a baby is born. It isn't anyone's business in any case. And you have horrid gray areas of resentment where men pressured women into sex due to taking advantage of the nature of most women's nurtured attitudes now-a-days.. Not rape, but not really consent either. The doctor should not make sure his patient wants a 'legit' abortion. These kinds of issues are sensitive, and private. In the case of incest.. I'm sure I would lie to kingdom come before I told anyone a situation like that.

    These cases are NOT common. And they are extreme minorities. But they're very, very important in any case. I agree that having widely available contraceptives, education, and other such things is the real key to reducing abortions. But... Pro-lifers tend to attack the very establishments that offer those. Most planned parenthoods do not offer abortions, they give counseling to mothers expecting, offer contraceptives for cheap or free to patients, and give tons of education on adoption, keeping a baby and making it work, as well as the risks and benefits to contraceptives and abortions. Yet bombs are made, protests happen absolutely daily, and people waste time and energy trying to yell at, embarrass, and torment people who even walk into an establishment no matter what their intentions are. They're effectively keeping people away from contraceptives and education.

    States like Texas are now requiring mothers expecting to have an ultra-sound for an abortion no matter what the reason is behind it. So rape victims? Now are *required* to have someone display on a screen the baby made by that situation, as well as be described how healthy the baby is and such. It's horrendous, invasive, and wrong.

    The beliefs are so extreme when it comes to pro-life that they think that pro-choice means pro-abortion. It really does not.
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