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  1. #11
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    That's a potential argument for a rape exception, but not an argument against an abortion ban altogether. Common law countries already recognize that a person who voluntarily takes on a life maintaining responsibility is responsible for the duration of their contact with that person. So a person isn't held responsible for murder if they sit and watch a person drown even if they have an innertube next to them. However, if they toss the innertube to the drowning person and then subsequently pop it and the person drowns then they are accountable for murder. People who voluntarily take on a responsibility are held to a higher standard of care. Conception is a foreseeable result of any voluntary normal sex act between a man and a woman (regardless of the use of other forms of contraception) and thus bares with it the responsibility to carry the child to birth.
    And having your house burglarized is the predictable result of living in a high-crime neighborhood, regardless of how many precautions one takes. By the same argument, these burglary victims should just accept the loss and have no cause to call the police. In any case, I am not speaking of the law, common or otherwise, just about what makes sense. If someone agrees to donate a kidney, then, should they be penalized if they have second thoughts and back out?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    That's an idiotic refrain. If having an abortion is safe then why would we as a broader society care whether it was rare or not?
    Not everything that is safe is desirable, and often one must give up one desirable thing to get something even more desirable (or accept something unpleasant to avoid something even more unpleasant). If you cannot understand such trade-offs, your perspective is simplistic indeed.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #12
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    People don't actually want to kill babies so they call for doing it earlier in the term to assuage their guilt. The less identifiably human it is, the better.

    As the baby matures, the people willing to kill it become fewer and fewer until it is finally born, where the number becomes close to zero. It's at this point that the guilt is solidified and can't be rationalized away, even though it's the same life that probably would have been killed earlier.

  3. #13
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    And having your house burglarized is the predictable result of living in a high-crime neighborhood, regardless of how many precautions one takes. By the same argument, these burglary victims should just accept the loss and have no cause to call the police. In any case, I am not speaking of the law, common or otherwise, just about what makes sense. If someone agrees to donate a kidney, then, should they be penalized if they have second thoughts and back out?
    Poor analogy. People don't always have a choice of where they live and they MUST live somewhere. Also, burglary is never considered a desired outcome. People always have a choice to not have sex ... unless it's rape. Moreover, procreation is the whole point of sex. Being burglarized is not the point of living in a home.

    The common law is the epitome of what makes sense as it is the tried and true collected wisdom of generations.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  4. #14
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If someone agrees to donate a kidney, then, should they be penalized if they have second thoughts and back out?
    If the recipient has been set up, then yes, absolutely. That's not a time to dick around and change your mind.

  5. #15
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I'm Pro-Life, but not really on any side of the overall "debate". Neither is logically consistent. Americans Conservatives have become the party of warmongering bravado, but yet are Pro-Life. Liberals are anti-war and apparently "humane", but Pro-Choice.

  6. #16
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    I left out the kidney donation analogy.

    That is not an analogous situation because while the person has declared they will provide life saving support they actually haven't delivered on that. A pregnant woman is in the midst of providing life preserving support, she hasn't merely promised it.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #17
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I'm Pro-Life, but not really on any side of the overall "debate". Neither is logically consistent. Americans Conservatives have become the party of warmongering bravado, but yet are Pro-Life. Liberals are anti-war and apparently "humane", but Pro-Choice.
    Liberals are only anti-war when there's a republican as president.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #18
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I left out the kidney donation analogy.

    That is not an analogous situation because while the person has declared they will provide life saving support they actually haven't delivered on that. A pregnant woman is in the midst of providing life preserving support, she hasn't merely promised it.
    It's just as good as. There are people waiting for a good match for organs and backing out after it's been agreed to is dicking around and wasting important time that could have been used on somebody actually reliable instead.

  9. #19
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Liberals are only anti-war when there's a republican as president.
    Not Martin Luther King. There was a man who was pro-life, anti-war, a civil rights icon, etc.. He was consistent (and he was anti-war during a democratic presidency as well). Sister Helen Prejean is a similar figure. Many Catholics actually (Martin Sheen, the actor, is a famous example).

  10. #20
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Of course abortion should be rare, safe and legal. The Catholic Church could contribute to this by giving up their opposition to contraception.

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