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  1. #11
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    same here (only mine's visa)

    I've never trusted money that I haven't already earned... just seems like a bad idea, like buying stocks on margin (which, in a way, is bizzarely similar to the looser standards of home buying and mortgage lending before the most recent financial crash)... gee... would history repeat itself?

    "we" is a good word for those who enjoy sharing the blame though, and blame seems more tolerable when it's shared
    I might sound smug saying this, but I saw the mortgage crisis coming too. Generally speaking, I mean. Maybe because I don't believe in the "American Dream" to begin with. That's what all of this rests on, and what lenders prey on. "You can have the dream too!" No, you can't. Not unless you have the wages (But wages are a whole other story I need not get into here).

  2. #12
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    The student loan bubble is going to burst too. Get ready.

  3. #13
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    It's called an "author's 'we'" and does not actually mean 'we'. It's simply an alternative when using 'they', 'you', or 'I' is not entirely appropriate. It's like a Royal 'We' but for different reasons.

    So no, it doesn't bother me. The underlying problems that you describe do, though.

  4. #14
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    It's not the rich people or top 1% that accrued most of the debt. Did they buy houses with sub-prime mortgages? Did they go to college and not have the money to pay off their debts? It was the younger lower middle class that for the most part that bought large amounts of things on credit. But that's because our government forced the banks to lend to them. I'm not saying the rich people are innocent, but if you are looking for who got us this HUGE amount of personal debt, its the younger lower middle class.

  5. #15
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
    It's not the rich people or top 1% that accrued most of the debt. Did they buy houses with sub-prime mortgages? Did they go to college and not have the money to pay off their debts? It was the younger lower middle class that for the most part that bought large amounts of things on credit. But that's because our government forced the banks to lend to them. I'm not saying the rich people are innocent, but if you are looking for who got us this HUGE amount of personal debt, its the younger lower middle class.
    Our economy for the past 30 years is based more on credit than wages. That's a systemic problem, and it's made the 1% a lot more wealthy than they have been in decades, and created a middle class (and in the mortgage crisis, the lower class too) lured into borrowing more than they should. Both are responsible though, I think. People want to live "the dream" - something indoctrinated into their heads, a national myth that might have been relevant at one time - but it isn't sustainable under than this model. It would work if people simply got paid more.

  6. #16
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    When I was younger I spent money stupidly and irresponsibly. I ended up with about $15k in debt at ridiculous interest rates. It took me about 8 years but I finally crawled out of that hole last year. Now I have only a car loan at 2.25% interest and 1 credit card which I pay 90% off every month (for some stupid reason it's better for your credit to carry a balance, even if its small, don't ask me why).

    Climbing out go debt is one of the proudest accomplishments I've made, not only for my own sake but because I am wiser and smarter. When I have kids, I will do my damnedest to make sure they don't make the same mistakes I did.
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  7. #17
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    should the one or two players whose play was irreproachable complain at the generalization
    Yes. Why not. People can do what they want.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  8. #18
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
    It's not the rich people or top 1% that accrued most of the debt. Did they buy houses with sub-prime mortgages? Did they go to college and not have the money to pay off their debts? It was the younger lower middle class that for the most part that bought large amounts of things on credit. But that's because our government forced the banks to lend to them. I'm not saying the rich people are innocent, but if you are looking for who got us this HUGE amount of personal debt, its the younger lower middle class.
    The government forced?

    Well in that case I'd be wondering, how they did that and why they did that?

    To be honest I dont believe it takes much for a racketeer to adopt new rackets when they opportunity arises, I would not say forced, I would say permitted.

    Why did they do it? Well I think that is the question which needs answering, I really think it was about sustaining capitalism for a couple more years, keeping the fantasy alive and popular on the one hand and post poning crisis from the contradictions, such as there not being the wages in the economy for people to act as consumers and sustain demand for production, for a while.

  9. #19
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Why did they do it?
    I think it goes all the way to the top. Greenspan was complicit. As far back as the late 90s, Brooksley Born tried to open a case on the deriatives market that escalated this mess. Greenspan was the first who tried silencing her. He's a direct disciple of Ayn Rand, for crissakes. As a rule of thumb, if he thinks if there's fraudalent exchanges on the market (or in this case, the off market), then the market polices itself. His philosophy is that the market will simply stop doing business with these kind of people (he's now admitted there was a flaw in his entire ideology). After that, she tried to take her case to congress. And was soundly squashed out, with the help of Greenspan again (and Robert Rubin). But my point is, you blame it on the pervasive Randian philosophy that's permitted all of this. That's "why" they did it. The overspending consumers/borrowers need to be blamed too, but at the same time, their main crime is being naive.. Everyone here is almost indoctrinated to spend, to not even think of their wages as a reflection of class, that credit will help them achieve their dreams, etc.. It's take a cynic like myself (or just someone with herculean effort) to resist and call bullshit. I'm a rarity for not depending on credit (and for knowing that I don't "deserve" things).

  10. #20
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I think it goes all the way to the top. Greenspan was complicit. As far back as the late 90s, Brooksley Born tried to open a case on the deriatives market that escalated this mess. Greenspan was the first who tried silencing her. He's a direct disciple of Ayn Rand, for crissakes. As a rule of thumb, if he thinks if there's fraudalent exchanges on the market (or in this case, the off market), then the market polices itself. The protectionist philosophy is that the market will simply stop doing business with these kind of people (he's now admitted there was a flaw in his entire ideology). After that, she tried to take her case to congress. And was soundly squashed out, with the help of Greenspan again (and Robert Rubin). But my point is, you blame it on the pervasive Randian philosophy that's permitted all of this. That's "why" they did it. The overspending consumers/borrowers need to be blamed too, but at the same time, their main crime is being naive.. Everyone here is almost indoctrinated to spend, to not even think of their wages as a reflection of class, that credit will help them achieve their dreams, etc.. It's take a cynic like myself (or just someone with herculean effort) to resist and call bullshit. I'm a rarity for not depending on credit (and for knowing that I don't "deserve" things).
    I do blame it on that, I bet the markets reacted badly to any public statements about rethinking his ideology. His appointment was largely about that I believe.

    This ideology is one that's shared by the state and the wealthiest families and king maker international financiers, they really do believe it, its not propaganda to them anymore. And I'm frightened to think that the hell the next or alternative ideology to Rand's ideology is going to be, what sort of screwball ideology is substituted. I'm betting its one which will look to attack the poor and working people even, even more.

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