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  1. #21
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    No, and I am glad you do not. I was hoping you did not. Sometimes I forget that Intps can be more genuine than most in their desire for objectivity. I am too used to seeing that as a front for the advancement of some personal agenda
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  2. #22
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    I see a dichotomy as more of a rhetorical device than a concept that describes the nature of social, economic or political phenomena. If you want to accentuate the virtues of your political agenda, demonize the ideology that seems to challenge it and make it seem like that point of view is diametrically opposed to yours in all relevant respects.

  3. #23
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    one of the things that's always annoyed me about politics is that very few people seem to be willing to consider that there IS a common ground and that sometimes it's merely rhetorical differences that make people unable to see that most of them want the same damned thing.

    I spent the first half of my life in a very small, insular rural community where everybody was related to everybody else (it seemed) and in light of the lack of diversity, the biggest distinctions between groups of people involved whether they were catholic, methodist, baptist or weslyan. Sure, there was a close knit sense of community in a way- large groups would show up at funerals toting casseroles, neighbors would help you clear out your driveway in the snow and you can bet that if you misbehaved not only would your mom hear about it, but so would your grandma, your second cousin AND your great aunt. It wasn't a community to move into though- outsiders were viewed as outsiders for a few generations and if one won something or gained any power there was some serious resentment in response. Very much a tribal mindset.

    I've lived in a very ethnically and racially diverse part of the city for the past 5 years now that tends to vote heavily democratic in elections (you should have HEARD the conversations in line at the voting booths on election day! ) and I have noticed some definite differences in a way- there's less of a chance that someone will feel the need to become involved in my life both for the positive and the negative and nobody cares who moves here because EVERYONE here is pretty much a first generation of this part of town. People are still helpful though- I've had strangers offer to help me change a tire, who've given me a cup of coffee when I was working outside on a cold day, who will willingly chip in an extra dollar if I'm a dollar short at the store... things of that sort.

    It's like people will connect and feel the need to reach out and help one another regardless of what sort of beliefs they hold and what sort of community they live in- the biggest difference I've observed is just to the extent in which others feel the need to become a part of your life. I prefer where I am now for many reasons, but one that makes me smile is that strangers will act kindly when they know that they may never see you again and that they don't know you from a Princess of Monaco

    However, the point is, people will be people regardless... the desire to demonize the "other" is just too tempting
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  4. #24
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Yes. It is a pity America became such rebels and left the Crown. They were aboard a ship, clad as natives, and they threw the tea overboard. They founded coffee plantations close to home.
    And it was all so unnecessary, for we are the counter example as we gained our independence from Britain and united a whole Continent without killing anyone.

  5. #25
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    I think it's a bit foolish to say that a way of thinking will without a doubt result in certain attitudes. Different people can believe the same thing for very different reasons.
    You lose.

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  6. #26
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    I think it's a bit foolish to say that a way of thinking will without a doubt result in certain attitudes. Different people can believe the same thing for very different reasons.
    +100

    They can also utilize what Haidt regards as the same motivation to arrive at polar opposite conclusions. As an example, I tend to be wary (at best) by talk of 'social justice', as the term tends to promote the concept of 'group rights' over the concept of individual rights, and 'positive rights' at the expense of 'negative rights'. In other words, concern about individual rights generally leads me to oppose modern 'liberalism' in favor of classical liberalism. I also find it revealing that Haidt only belatedly added a liberty/oppression metric, which is pretty much the first type of metric I would think of.

    That said, I do tend to agree that political conservatives (at least in the United States) tend to filter their opinions through a wider range of moral considerations......but then, I would think that, wouldn't I?

  7. #27
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    +100

    They can also utilize what Haidt regards as the same motivation to arrive at polar opposite conclusions. As an example, I tend to be wary (at best) by talk of 'social justice', as the term tends to promote the concept of 'group rights' over the concept of individual rights, and 'positive rights' at the expense of 'negative rights'. In other words, concern about individual rights generally leads me to oppose modern 'liberalism' in favor of classical liberalism. I also find it revealing that Haidt only belatedly added a liberty/oppression metric, which is pretty much the first type of metric I would think of.

    That said, I do tend to agree that political conservatives (at least in the United States) tend to filter their opinions through a wider range of moral considerations......but then, I would think that, wouldn't I?
    I tend to think of traditional conservatism as a bit different from the philosophy that the term describes today. Traditionally, many of these things mentioned by the OP do apply; however, many modern conservatives are more in line with the classical liberalism that you mentioned, or mainstream libertarianism. The problem is imprecise communication; people thinking they are discussing the same philosophy when they really aren't.
    You lose.

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  8. #28
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    we had a discussion similar to this in a thread created by @Seymour perhaps he can dig it up. I argued there that is has an interesting overlap with kohlberg's stages of moral development with liberals tending to fall more on the level 1 (less educated) and level 3 scales (more developed) with conservatives seeming to fall more in the conventional and pre-conventional stages
    Here's that thread you mentioned: Liberals vs Conservatives, Authoritarianism, SDO and Haidt's Moral Scales.

    Sorry to be so slow to respond... just getting caught up after holidays and not-flu.

  9. #29
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And it was all so unnecessary, for we are the counter example as we gained our independence from Britain and united a whole Continent without killing anyone.
    Statemanship.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Statemanship.
    Or delusional lying. I mean diplomacy.

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