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  1. #81
    redundant descriptor netzealot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    People will not work hard if they feel there is no incentive to do so, and because many Americans -feel- (yes, I believe affect precedes cognition so sue me) that they will not be able to rise above whatever class they were born into (because of economic pressures or otherwise) then they will not TRY to.
    I totally agree, I don't think they will try either. Like I said, this country is too lazy for that. If there were to be an upward drive in production it would take a very, very, very long time (centuries) for the US to ever end up in the upward swing of a country like China. We've been on the top too long to have more product than we're getting paid for... we're quite the opposite actually and that's why the bloat is finally bubbling to the top and causing problems.

    However, I am talking very large scale here, not minor increases in efficiency which are part of the normal economic growth of any country. Given enough time (think decades and decades) the actual goods and services rendered (lets just call it product) will outweigh currency in terms of it's effectiveness in the global economy, since ultimately papermoney has relative value to product only, and product has value in itself, money or no money. Money is just a medium.

    Look at it the way a lot of people do (currency value only) and you have a strange conundrum to explain... if the US is in such dire financial straights, how come it largely operates the same way it does in the last 2 decades apart from a minor inflation? Because our product have not changed drastically. The US still has a very strong economy, it just owes a lot of collateral and somehow manages to use more than it makes. The US economy (like it's citizens) need to trim the fat... not a coincidence! I am not saying this means working more, it's a combination of efficiency increase (as you aptly pointed out) as well as reduction in unjustifiable and wasteful luxuries like $2,000 toilets in the Pentagon.

    And how come the Chinese economy is a threat... what makes China so special? Their MASSIVE product... they just haven't figured out the infrastructure required to compete in the currency market until the last decade.

    On the flipside, look at the Russian economy. Still totally destitute... I think they will recover, but it might take 20-30 years and it will probably depend entirely on their ability to develop those resources they're still sitting on, and THAT will probably only be driven by the inevitable development of the technologies used to harvest them as well as the global desire for those resources as a launching point for recovery. This is a far fetched prediction of course but you get my point that these things take a long time to see the effects. Product > currency. Right now Russia has very little in the cards for it's recovery except natural resources, which as I said only offset so much, something which is very apparent with Russia--massive natural resources yet they're still stuck.

  2. #82
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    The rich do not pay their fair share of taxes because the dividend and capital gains taxes (for stocks) are at (or were at) 15%. This is how the rich get their money, from stock ownership. A fair move would be to put income generated from stocks under the income tax bracket. This would allow for the tax on money gained or lost in the market to be as progressive, which is better than flat.

    Now with all that money gained from taxing stock ownership more, the government could get rid of corporation/business tax. This would really get jobs back up again and allow for more entrepreneurship.

  3. #83
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    That's naive to say the least because those choices do not exist in a bubble. They have effects which loop back and effect the long term sustainability of the process.

    The flat truth that nobody wants to admit is that scarcity will always be a problem so long as humans refuse to limit birth rate. The rich know this and instead of working to solve problems of scarcity simply hope to hoard as much wealth as possible to get through any possible revolution unscathed.
    When products become more scarce, they become more expensive, which automatically reduces the consumption of said product.
    You lose.

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  4. #84
    redundant descriptor netzealot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
    The rich do not pay their fair share of taxes because the dividend and capital gains taxes (for stocks) are at (or were at) 15%. This is how the rich get their money, from stock ownership. A fair move would be to put income generated from stocks under the income tax bracket. This would allow for the tax on money gained or lost in the market to be as progressive, which is better than flat.

    Now with all that money gained from taxing stock ownership more, the government could get rid of corporation/business tax. This would really get jobs back up again and allow for more entrepreneurship.
    That is an excellent idea. I doubt it would ever get implemented, though.

  5. #85
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    When products become more scarce, they become more expensive, which automatically reduces the consumption of said product.
    Not necessarily, because those who can afford the product may just consume more etc and not every process on the earth is subject to the laws of economics. Also, when you're talking about some basic resource like food or water, it's quite cruel to be so laissez-faire about it.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  6. #86
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasoline View Post
    or do they pay less? just want to establish this point is true or false on this forum because the opinion seems mixed.
    Most of the elite rich people are entrepreneurs or investors. There are many loopholes in taxes for these types of people because they create a lot of jobs. They are fully aware of this, and take full advantage of it. I'm not saying that's wrong though.

  7. #87
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Not necessarily, because those who can afford the product may just consume more etc and not every process on the earth is subject to the laws of economics. Also, when you're talking about some basic resource like food or water, it's quite cruel to be so laissez-faire about it.
    Actually, pretty much everything comes down to economics; it's not just a made up theory and covers not just business but absolutely every type of human interaction. When you can't see it, that's because whatever factor you're looking at is abundant enough that the "cost" is minimal. And I'm really not being cruel, just factual. Why do you need to regulate something that is self-regulating?
    You lose.

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  8. #88
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Most of the elite rich people are entrepreneurs or investors. There are many loopholes in taxes for these types of people because they create a lot of jobs. They are fully aware of this, and take full advantage of it. I'm not saying that's wrong though.
    Its not necessarily wrong to take advantage of the tax code as it is; nothing illegal is being done when a loophole is used. But those loopholes should be eliminated. Everybody should pay their fair share, including the rich. The question is just what is a fair share.
    You lose.

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  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Its not necessarily wrong to take advantage of the tax code as it is; nothing illegal is being done when a loophole is used. But those loopholes should be eliminated. Everybody should pay their fair share, including the rich. The question is just what is a fair share.
    Right. No one in their right mind will pay more taxes then they have to.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Most of the elite rich people are entrepreneurs or investors. There are many loopholes in taxes for these types of people because they create a lot of jobs. They are fully aware of this, and take full advantage of it. I'm not saying that's wrong though.
    Well that's what the tea party ideology says, yeah, I think we're all aware that is a fairy story though.

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