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  1. #11
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Are you referring to the government, the rich, or both?
    The rich and in particular ceos. Basically, people who utilize a ton of resources supplying a bunch of useless garbage consuming global resources at an exponential rate and then see no irony in complaining that the poor utilize too many resources in social services (where a lot of those are potentially renewable [ie food, organic resources for the construction of housing, fibers in the manufacture of clothing, etc])
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  2. #12
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You can't count me. I've seen figures like that plenty of times. That's the percentage they contribute to all of the government's tax revenue. But what percentage of their income do they pay? What percentage of all the country's income do they possess? How much tax revenue is the government taking in altogether? How much money does one need for any particular purpose? The ultimate question being, can the money be distributed in a way that makes the country more prosperous?

    The answers to those questions are probably more important.
    I can understand frustrations being aimed at the wealthy class. I just can't understand why anyone would think giving more money to DC could make things better. Those idiots don't even read bills before they vote on them.
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  3. #13
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    The rich and in particular ceos. Basically, people who utilize a ton of resources supplying a bunch of useless garbage consuming global resources at an exponential rate and then see no irony in complaining that the poor utilize too many resources in social services (where a lot of those are potentially renewable [ie food, organic resources for the construction of housing, fibers in the manufacture of clothing, etc])
    I get where you're coming from, but it's a big "potentially." It's just a big wasteful circle when you think of large companies that mainly sell to the poor like Walmart and McDonalds.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I get where you're coming from, but it's a big "potentially." It's just a big wasteful circle when you think of large companies that mainly sell to the poor like Walmart and McDonalds.
    Right, but capitalism incentivizes the cheapest alternative to be used in manufacture to meet consumer demand. It does not take into account the larger impact of that process globally such as extinction species that you see for example with the fishing industry. If continued unchecked things like this can cause catastrophic problems like we see with the BP oil spill, the everyday waste generated by packaging, and global warming which even if it is caused by cyclical sun events could be mitigated by minimizing the release of greenhouse gases. You can see it recently with the ban on mercury in manufacturing that was just signed by several hundred countries. Currently we have no way of dealing with these problems until they are potentially "runaway trains" that we then become incapable of stopping. Also, as @Lark believes I think it has an effect on our social interaction and manifestation of individual personality as the traits we value in a person necessarily become more focused on what they can provide instead of viewing them as having inherent value. It leads to a peculiar kind of dehumanization. Where this might have overlaps with your own personal philosophy in some ways capitalist pressures can be seen as influencing the "collapse of the nuclear family" as it becomes more necessary for families to be dual income to survive leaving no one to raise the kids who are then showered with compensatory gifts because of a feeling of guilt due to not being able to be there in terms of time which just goes back into the feedback loop of consumerism. So, next time you decide to blame the collapse of morality on relativists you may wish to examine the way in which many of the conservative principles touted by the republican party also jeopardize the lifestyle you hold dear

    Not to be too controversial, but it is an interesting way to look at it
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  5. #15
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I can understand frustrations being aimed at the wealthy class. I just can't understand why anyone would think giving more money to DC could make things better. Those idiots don't even read bills before they vote on them.
    Who will fix the problem instead? It would seem considerably more foolish to presume that private enterprises would voluntarily end their own racket.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasoline View Post
    or do they pay less? just want to establish this point is true or false on this forum because the opinion seems mixed.
    Once you factor in all taxes (payroll, sales, etc), the poor and middle class pay a higher rate. The rich love to whine about the income tax (as though it were the only tax that mattered) because it's the only tax that hits them harder than the poor and middle class.

    Edit: I forgot about the estate tax. That's another tax that hits the rich harder than the poor and middle class, and it's another tax they love to whine about.

    Edit #2: Something that totally exposed the Republicans as hypocrites was their opposition to the payroll tax holiday. Tax increases on the poor and middle class are good things in their book.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #17
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Yeah, I don't know what fair means.

    I'm not sure people appreciate how much the rich already pay in America even with loopholes.



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    It does not matter what they earn. The figures for the rich are not there.

  8. #18
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I can understand frustrations being aimed at the wealthy class. I just can't understand why anyone would think giving more money to DC could make things better. Those idiots don't even read bills before they vote on them.
    my thoughts exactly. when you start a business, you don't ask "do I need to invest more into this business?" before you ask "am I using the resources I have already invested efficiently?" this is my opinion of how government should be approached. before people ask "are the rich paying enough in taxes?" they should ask "is tax revenue being used effectively?" the goal should be for the government to provide whatever services people deem necessary (which is as little as possible in my opinion, but that's a different discussion) as efficiently and with as little tax revenue as possible. "give a successful business more money and it will become more efficient; give an unsuccessful business more money and it will become less efficient" (Bill Gates, paraphrased). the same is true of governments

    so, to answer the question, no, I don't think the rich pay their fair share of taxes. they pay too much, just like everyone else who's money is being wasted by a Congress who passes passes bills without reading them. I mean, seriously? how is it acceptable to people that they pay as much as half their money to the government without their consent and all the evidence points to that money being used inefficiently (or worse, corruptly).
    if there comes a time where the government actually makes some attempt to allocate it's resources effectively and efficiently and still needs more money to cover basic necessities, then yes, I will support taxing the rich more. until then, hell no. I can spend my money a lot better than you can thank you very much
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  9. #19
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    my thoughts exactly. when you start a business, you don't ask "do I need to invest more into this business?" before you ask "am I using the resources I have already invested efficiently?" this is my opinion of how government should be approached. before people ask "are the rich paying enough in taxes?" they should ask "is tax revenue being used effectively?" the goal should be for the government to provide whatever services people deem necessary (which is as little as possible in my opinion, but that's a different discussion) as efficiently and with as little tax revenue as possible. "give a successful business more money and it will become more efficient; give an unsuccessful business more money and it will become less efficient" (Bill Gates, paraphrased). the same is true of governments
    I believe it's possible to make government run more efficiently by altering the incentive structure. We just have to be careful not to go overboard to the opposite extreme. Quality of service should be a higher priority than cost cutting.

    so, to answer the question, no, I don't think the rich pay their fair share of taxes. they pay too much, just like everyone else who's money is being wasted by a Congress who passes passes bills without reading them. I mean, seriously? how is it acceptable to people that they pay as much as half their money to the government without their consent and all the evidence points to that money being used inefficiently (or worse, corruptly).
    if there comes a time where the government actually makes some attempt to allocate it's resources effectively and efficiently and still needs more money to cover basic necessities, then yes, I will support taxing the rich more. until then, hell no. I can spend my money a lot better than you can thank you very much
    As much as half? Come on. People like Mitt Romney don't pay anything close to a tax rate of 50%. Their effective rate is near 10%.

    Congress passes bills without reading them because they spend as much as 70% of their time fundraising for the next election. Money makes politics better, doesn't it? /sarcasm
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #20
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    The intellectual dearth in this thread is revealing.

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