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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Not necessarily, because those who can afford the product may just consume more etc and not every process on the earth is subject to the laws of economics. Also, when you're talking about some basic resource like food or water, it's quite cruel to be so laissez-faire about it.
    And it' quite shortsighted to sacrifice the fiscal health of the nation (which negatively effects more people) in order to subsidize the lives of the poor and the lower middle class.

    To cast any differing opinion as a moral failure is not unlike the tendency of hawks to call those that disagree with their foreign policy ideas un-patriotic or un-American.

    When one casts differing opinions as a failure of intelligence, morals or character you've ceded any possibility of civil discourse.

  2. #92
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    @freeeekyyy and @DiscoBiscuit there are alternatives like the Resource based economy which deal with the same concerns in a more ethical and egalitarian manner which conservatives do not even look at. I am not sure if it is because the idea has not become very popularized or because of greed or ignorance (not just on the part of conservatives by the way). The reality of the situation is that we cannot keep our current economy without suffering the problems that the economy creates in the real world namely poverty, starvation, homelessness, and war which are all tied to resource scarcity as population increases. The plain truth is that we will continue to have these problems until we move from capitalism which posits that exponential growth can continue ad infinitum on a world with limited resources to a more realistic economy based on sustainability.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  3. #93
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    And how is such a system a VIABLE alternative to capitalism?

    I suspect it hasn't become popularized because it isn't.

  4. #94
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    If you want to sit back and be an armchair philosopher and just say, "You're wrong because nobody has done it yet." Then I'm not going to coddle you. I'm not an evangelist and to be quite frank, I don't think I have to be because I think the reality of this is going to be forced on the world very soon as technologies like aquaponics make agricultural food giants that prey on people for profit (like Monsanto) irrelevant.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    If you want to sit back and be an armchair philosopher and just say
    I won't stop your coffee house philosophising. Let me know the next time a TED talk video comes out that you think reinvents the wheel, I'll make sure to yawn again.

    No other system incentivizes success better than capitalism.

    I thinkthe reality of this is going to be forced on the world very soon as technologies like aquaponics make agricultural food giants that prey on people for profit (like Monsanto) irrelevant.
    I'll let you work on your explanation for why this didn't happen.

    Where are the incentives for this to happen?

    And if you then say, "Because we have to save the environment", I will respond with "I need to make enough $ to maintain my current standard of living".

    Guess which one of those is subordinated almost every time for most people.

    Until those dovetail, or government becomes capable of telling big business what to do, I don't see it happening.

    Sustainable business practices are only adopted (by and large) when they are in the financial interest of the company, or when they're forced upon them.

  6. #96
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I won't stop your coffee house philosophising. Let me know the next time a TED talk video comes out that you think reinvents the wheel, I'll make sure to yawn again.

    No other system incentivizes success better than capitalism.



    I'll let you work on your explanation for why this didn't happen.

    Where are the incentives for this to happen?

    And if you then say, "Because we have to save the environment", I will respond with "I need to make enough $ to maintain my current standard of living".

    Guess which one of those is subordinated almost every time for most people.

    Until those dovetail, or government becomes capable of telling big business what to do, I don't see it happening.

    Sustainable business practices are only adopted (by and large) when they are in the financial interest of the company, or when they're forced upon them.
    It's obvious you are not even familiar with the basic concepts of a resource based economy so how am I supposed to discuss them? You can use the free market to sell technologies that make current business models irrelevant, like selling a hydroponics system or a 3d printer that makes a lot of manufacturing superfluous. So it is not so much a matter of convincing those in power to change their minds, but a reality that will be forced on society as the market itself meets the demands of consumers.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    @freeeekyyy and @DiscoBiscuit there are alternatives like the Resource based economy which deal with the same concerns in a more ethical and egalitarian manner which conservatives do not even look at. I am not sure if it is because the idea has not become very popularized or because of greed or ignorance (not just on the part of conservatives by the way). The reality of the situation is that we cannot keep our current economy without suffering the problems that the economy creates in the real world namely poverty, starvation, homelessness, and war which are all tied to resource scarcity as population increases. The plain truth is that we will continue to have these problems until we move from capitalism which posits that exponential growth can continue ad infinitum on a world with limited resources to a more realistic economy based on sustainability.
    The whole role of environmental protection is this: to pass on a world to our descendants that is better than the way we found it
    So, is a world without Siberian tigers a more diminished world? yes. Is a world without Peeble's jumping mouse more diminished? no. Is a world without any fossil fuel reserves a diminished world? yes. Is a warmer world a diminished world? No....

    As for poverty, starvation, and homelessness -- if these were eliminated, then what incentive does anybody have to work? The flaw with many peoples perspective of government is that the government is meant to promote its populace's welfare. This can never be achieved. The best thing a government can promote is it's populaces opportunity.

    Two examples of too far to the right or left are 18th century France and the USSR. Both failed.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    there are alternatives like the Resource based economy which deal with the same concerns in a more ethical and egalitarian manner which conservatives do not even look at.
    Thank you for sharing that video by the idiots -- or should I say that idiot -- at "The Zeitgeist Movement".

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I am not sure if it is because the idea has not become very popularized or because of greed or ignorance (not just on the part of conservatives by the way).
    It's because it's no more serious an idea than a fart in the wind.

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    The reality of the situation is that we cannot keep our current economy without suffering the problems that the economy creates in the real world namely poverty, starvation, homelessness, and war which are all tied to resource scarcity as population increases.
    Believe it or not, poverty, starvation, homelessness, and war all existed well before capitalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    The plain truth is that we will continue to have these problems until we move from capitalism which posits that exponential growth can continue ad infinitum on a world with limited resources to a more realistic economy based on sustainability.
    Believe it or not, as we start to run into limits (i.e., supply starts dwindling), capitalism will automatically adjust.

    That's what it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I'm not an evangelist...
    You sure sound like one.

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    ...and to be quite frank, I don't think I have to be because I think the reality of this is going to be forced on the world very soon as technologies like aquaponics make agricultural food giants that prey on people for profit (like Monsanto) irrelevant.
    And replace it with themselves, who will then "prey on people for profit".

    Or, in non-conspiracy-theory-speak: produce products that the market desires and thus pays for.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I won't stop your coffee house philosophising. Let me know the next time a TED talk video comes out that you think reinvents the wheel, I'll make sure to yawn again.
    Oh, don't give it so much credit.

    That was not a TED talk -- it was a TEDx talk.

    I could form a fucking local TEDx talk if I wanted, and have whatever idiot speak at it.

    They're simply attempting to use the TED name to give themselves credibility -- they're not actually credible.

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    It's obvious you are not even familiar with the basic concepts of a resource based economy so how am I supposed to discuss them?
    How about you learn economics -- the study of how people produce and consume goods and services in a world of limited resources -- so that you can see how Peter Joseph's "resource-based" economics is a meaningless internet fraud (there's good reason why his movement has been [rightfully] called an internet cult), aimed at capturing the minds of people who don't really know what they're talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    You can use the free market to sell technologies that make current business models irrelevant, like selling a hydroponics system or a 3d printer that makes a lot of manufacturing superfluous. So it is not so much a matter of convincing those in power to change their minds, but a reality that will be forced on society as the market itself meets the demands of consumers.
    Oh, so you're talking about creative destruction; you know, the very foundation of free-market, entrepreneurial capitalism.

  9. #99
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil P View Post
    As for poverty, starvation, and homelessness -- if these were eliminated, then what incentive does anybody have to work? The flaw with many peoples perspective of government is that the government is meant to promote its populace's welfare. This can never be achieved. The best thing a government can promote is it's populaces opportunity.
    I hope I am not offending you, but if the only way you are willing to do something productive is because of fear of punishment then I think there is something very sad in there. Let me rephrase your question back to you in another form, "What is the ADVANTAGE in CREATING SCARCITY? How does that end well?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Believe it or not, poverty, starvation, homelessness, and war all existed well before capitalism.
    They're still created by scarcity derp.

    Believe it or not, as we start to run into limits (i.e., supply starts dwindling), capitalism will automatically adjust.

    That's what it does.
    Shuffling resources around so they're distributed efficiently is less useful than taking steps to rectify scarcity and create abundance.

    You sure sound like one.
    Says Mitt Romney Jr.

    And replace it with themselves, who will then "prey on people for profit"
    So creating a system where someone can grow their own food, create their own drinking water, and provide all their electrical needs in a much cheaper and more sustainable manner so they are more self sufficient = the moral equivalent of giant agrobusiness creating seeds that cannot be fertilized so that each year farmers are dependent only on them for new supplies? If people reverse engineer the process and make it so people can do it on their own for free is it still preying on them for money?

    Oh, so you're talking about creative destruction; you know, the very foundation of free-market, entrepreneurial capitalism.
    I am not a religious man and I don't look at capitalism as the savior of mankind like perhaps you do naively I might add.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  10. #100
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    Good job selectively responding to what I wrote, bud.

    But, considering how stupid what you did say was, I can imagine why you chose to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    They're still created by scarcity derp.
    Yes, and economic scarcity is an inherent part of the human condition.

    I'm sorry you are incapable of realizing this.


    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Shuffling resources around so they're distributed efficiently is less useful than taking steps to rectify scarcity and create abundance.
    Yes, and tomorrow we shall start pooping rainbows and butterflies too!

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    Says Mitt Romney Jr.
    This one takes the cake for idiocy.

    Simple minds, simple minds.


    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    So creating a system where someone can grow their own food, create their own drinking water, and provide all their electrical needs in a much cheaper and more sustainable manner so they are more self sufficient = the moral equivalent of giant agrobusiness creating seeds that cannot be fertilized so that each year farmers are dependent only on them for new supplies? If people reverse engineer the process and make it so people can do it on their own for free is it still preying on them for money?
    Clearly you don't see all the flaws in your (utopian) thinking.

    Not surprising.

    Quick thought: I wonder where these people would live. How would they stake their claim to this land? How would they pay for it? What would happen when their systems started breaking down? And they needed new supplies? Who would supply these? How about if they got sick? Or a fire broke out? Or they were robbed? Or attacked?

    That's just a beginning.

    I'm sorry, but your utopian internet cult is simple-minded and retarded.

    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I am not a religious man and I don't look at capitalism as the savior of mankind like perhaps you do naively I might add.
    Apparently you're also not a punctuating man.

    But one thing that no one can say that you are not is:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ9QO1lm-Mw

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