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  1. #31
    morose bourgeoisie
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    He deserves to be vilified. It's one thing to cover up cheating, but to act like a thug to former friends and colleagues is disturbing to me. Because of his demeanor in the Oprah interview, I now believe that he is still lying about some of it. Unintended consequences, indeed...

  2. #32
    redundant descriptor netzealot's Avatar
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    I am not entirely sure what to make of it.

    Think about it... essentially he lies flat out Clinton-style for 7 titles and then agrees to go on Oprah to admit it, after denying the claims which got him banned and those claims were more or less forgotten by the media.

    People don't lie sociopathically for that long and then turn around unless something else is going on. I think it may be because he plans to compete in other sports again at some point and this provides some benefits in that regard that I don't fully understand... I can't really think of any other reason he might. Any thoughts?


    On the other hand, though, I think the public is taking his lashing a bit too seriously. It's not Lance Armstrong's fault that people made him out to be a hero in such a way that no mortal ought to be portrayed as. Part of it is cheaters suck moral superiority band-wagoning, and some of it is that when people found out their personal hero was a fraud it chipped their ego.

    It is cheating and it is wrong, but to punish him more harshly in the public eye than any other sports drug user is not fair. The fact is that no mortal should be lauded as such a hero in the first place.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    On the other hand, though, I think the public is taking his lashing a bit too seriously. It's not Lance Armstrong's fault that people made him out to be a hero in such a way that no mortal ought to be portrayed as. Part of it is cheaters suck moral superiority band-wagoning, and some of it is that when people found out their personal hero was a fraud it chipped their ego.
    I don't know why it has to chip egos. Especially mine. Like I said, I just don't like bullshit. My other option is to like bullshit. I'll choose the former. It's not a complicated choice. It doesn't mean I can't turn my attention elsewhere, to other problems, either. I'm not investing much energy in this. You guys are the only people I've spoken to about it.

  4. #34
    redundant descriptor netzealot's Avatar
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    In that case what I said would not refer to you. I mean people (most likely athletes) who felt they related to Armstrong on a deeper level. People who were inspired by his success despite having cancer. Then, for them to find out he was cheating made them question the very inspiration which might have driven them, in a way. It's insulting in a "something's rotten with your childhood hero" sort of way.

    Who knows. Can't expect an ISTP (myself included) to fully understand it. I read in a profile somewhere that ISTPs tend to compete with ourselves so I can't see how this would effect our personality type much (as you said).

  5. #35
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    On the other hand, though, I think the public is taking his lashing a bit too seriously. It's not Lance Armstrong's fault that people made him out to be a hero in such a way that no mortal ought to be portrayed as. Part of it is cheaters suck moral superiority band-wagoning, and some of it is that when people found out their personal hero was a fraud it chipped their ego.
    For the umpteeth time, I point people towards comments by Ivy and me and others noting one of the main issues here at the backlash -- that his behavior towards those who have accused him of cheating have been abominable. He has publically and aggressive vilified their characters and even taken them to court for slander, even people who could not adequately defend themselves in court.

    I am not sure why everyone is hung up on the other items. Who cares if he was someone's hero? We're jaded enough today that we all know our heroes probably suck in some ways. And we're all smart enough to realize a lot of people are doping, and he just got caught despite his efforts; he made himself a much bigger target with his success, so he's been under more scrutiny, especially after all the allegations.

    But it's not very hard to despise someone who basically tries to destroy innocent people who were only telling the truth. He had power and money and a reputation; he used it to ruin others in order to keep his power and money and reputation. That makes him at the least a bully (at the VERY least), and our culture is not in the mood to tolerate bullies anymore.
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  6. #36
    Member trancemode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trancemode View Post
    Which isn't to say I feel sorry for Armstrong and don’t think he more or less got what he deserved, just that we maybe need to prioritize better in who and what we direct our outrage at.
    I lied, and this is my true confession. I do feel a little bit sorry for the guy, God help me. Blame it on misguided Fi pity, but when someone I might hate while they’re riding high takes the fall and hits bottom, I’m inclined to feel some pity (assuming we’re not talking about a Hitler or Pol Pot or such).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I mean, Jesus. What a dick.
    This reminds me of an underlying psychological dimension I see in this sort of thing: people in general feel better about themselves—relieved—when they see someone worse on display. An inner voice whispers, “Thank God, at least I’m not as much of a dick (or fill in the blank) as that guy”.

    Also, shadow issues are a factor in our reaction to scapegoats (whether the scapegoat in question deserves it or not). We find relief in projecting our disowned “asshole” qualities onto a Lance Armstrong who visibly embodies them.

  7. #37
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    I didn't even watch the interview, but so what, he took drugs. Not like he killed anyone. And everyone was doing it, so he was still the best.

    Or maybe it's just because I don't give a fuck about cycling, and if it was a sport I cared about, maybe I would be angry at him? IDK.

    I still think that he is worth a hell lot more than most of his critics.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    For the umpteeth time, I point people towards comments by Ivy and me and others noting one of the main issues here at the backlash -- that his behavior towards those who have accused him of cheating have been abominable. He has publically and aggressive vilified their characters and even taken them to court for slander, even people who could not adequately defend themselves in court.
    Part of me says: 1.) Obviously if you're going to cheat, do it properly and 2.) What were their motives for getting involved? If self-interest, then you take the risk of the other person defending themselves.

  9. #39
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Where I think Armstrong's behavior becomes despicable is in how he responded to allegations against him-- allegations, it's important to note, that turned out to be true, so those people were not lying like he insisted they were. He publicly slandered those people and caused them material harm by suing them and tying up their time and money in the court system.
    I hadn't realized some of this. I agree. Apparently what he did to LeMond is een worse than that from a financial standpoint. One article I read said he lost millions in endorsement revenue from Trek because Armstrong pressured them to drop him.

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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    If Armstrong's Tour de France victories should be repealed, then a bloodlust of equivalent magnitude should be waged against anyone who has won that event since him (at minimum).
    I'm not a cycling fan and I really don't have a dog in this fight.

    Jan Ulrich won the 1997 Tour. He was recently found guilty of doping. His '97 Tour victory stands, but he has been stripped of his more recent titles.

    Marco Pantani won in '98. He's dead.

    Then Armstrong won a bunch of times. In addition to Lance, the guys who shared to podium with him those years have also been stripped of their titles because they were dirty too.

    After Lance, Floyd Landis won. He was busted and stripped of his title.

    Alberto Contador was busted for doping and his 2010 win was taken away.

    I have no idea how things will turn out in the long run for Cadell Evans and Bradley Wiggins.

    It is STUPID to think that by de-frocking Armstrong of his victories, that doping with PEDs in the professional cycling circuit has been eradicated.
    Is anyone here actually saying that it has?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    The actual doping is not the most disturbing part of the Lance Armstrong thing, to me. I'm sure there's doping in all kinds of sports at the highest levels. What really disturbs me about it is his policy of slandering/suing anyone who insinuated that he was doping. WHEN HE WAS. I mean, Jesus. What a dick.
    My feelings exactly.
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