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  1. #21
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Yes. That, and the whole faking his cancer thing.

    I don't know... I know it seems dramatic, but you could probably make a good case that he's an actual, diagnosable psychopath. ...Or at the very least, an INTJ.
    @Ivy, I don't think anybody fakes cancer. That he recovered so quickly and then won several Tour de Frances after that pretty much convinced me that he was taking some kind of PEDs. It really didn't and doesn't bother me that much though because I assume that so many top athletes have taken them. There was a great running back in Chicago - Walter Peyton. He died in his early 40s from bile duct cancer, which is highly likely related to Steroid use when he was a player. He almost never missed a game and could always be counted to make the play when it counted. He is revered as the greatest running back to play for the Chicago Bears in the last 40 years - one of the best of all time. People gloss over the steroids part it because they all did it back then. Also, he was friendly, mischievous and smiled a lot. People liked him.

    It's easy to judge people and the Armstrong has pretty much been crucified. You can see it all piling on - the tyrant, the psychopath, the abusive brute who destroyed people. Really? Lance Armstrong doesn't come across as the most friendly guy. He seems arrogant and doesn't smile. He strikes me as an INTJ Enneagram 8 - not the most sympathetic character in the world and certainly not the most charming in his apologies on national public TV. He came across in the interview as cold and mostly unemotional. It does color your judgment. I wonder how well the interview would have been perceived if he was an ENFP Enneagram 7.

    He took PEDs like a whole lot of people did and he got caught. His punishment is that he can't compete in any sanctioned athletic competition permanently. Seems like enough to me. For he people he "disappointed" or "let down" - I'd say get a life. He was a professional athlete not your friend. He did survive an advanced form of testicular cancer and he did manage to compete on the national stage after that. It's an inspiring story whether or not he did drugs.

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  2. #22
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Again, highlander, it's not the doping that really bothers me about Armstrong. (Not that anything REALLY bothers me about him- but we do form opinions about the behavior of celebrities and other notable people.) Like you say and like I said, I'm sure it's quite common at the top level of any sport and I think it's pretty well established that he wasn't the only cyclist doing it.

    Where I think Armstrong's behavior becomes despicable is in how he responded to allegations against him-- allegations, it's important to note, that turned out to be true, so those people were not lying like he insisted they were. He publicly slandered those people and caused them material harm by suing them and tying up their time and money in the court system.

    If he also faked cancer (which I can't find evidence of) that would be even more despicable, but even if his cancer was genuine he's still pretty much a sack of crap IMO. Having had cancer doesn't make a person virtuous.

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Where I think Armstrong's behavior becomes despicable is in how he responded to allegations against him-- allegations, it's important to note, that turned out to be true, so those people were not lying like he insisted they were. He publicly slandered those people and caused them material harm by suing them and tying up their time and money in the court system.
    That's exactly what my issue is with him too. The doping issue is complicated to evaluate due to the realities of the sport; but his treatment of those who rightfully blew the whistle on him was despicable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    You don't think he will follow the path of redemption taken by Tiger Woods?
    Tiger's been having some off-days in golf lately, or at least some off-swings... which for him isn't good -- kind of like the thought of Pete Sampras in his prime mishitting balls out.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Udog, did he really fake the cancer too? I can't find that in a reliable source online.
    You're right. I heard from a friend who is usually pretty good about passing news on. We were talking about his Oprah confession when she told me about him faking his cancer, so I figured he confessed to it. Not the case. I can't find a reliable source either, so I updated my original post.

    Armstrong has officially hit the "Tyson Zone". That is, the story gets so incredible that just about anything is believable at first brush. I didn't really question it twice. I mean, if I heard Armstrong had a 3 acre farm of babies who he used for blood doping purposes, I'd totally consider that plausible!

  5. #25
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Yeah, it was plausible to me too. People have definitely faked cancer. He wouldn't be the first or the last to do that.

  6. #26
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Yeah, it was plausible to me too. People have definitely faked cancer. He wouldn't be the first or the last to do that.
    And he's demonstrated the ruthlessness and cunning to pull it off, too.

    Actually though, @highlander's comments about him coming off as cold and unemotional makes me somewhat less likely to consider him a true psychopath, if only because psychopaths tend to be charming bastards when it suits them.

  7. #27
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    And he's demonstrated the ruthlessness and cunning to pull it off, too.

    Actually though, highlander's comments about him coming off as cold and emotional makes me somewhat less likely to consider him a true psychopath, if only because psychopaths tend to be charming bastards when it suits them.
    Lol... so he's not really a psychopath, he's just an ass.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    And he's demonstrated the ruthlessness and cunning to pull it off, too.
    Maybe more importantly, he has doctors willing to break the rules to help him reach the top.

  9. #29
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Eh, I just don't like bullshit. Simple as that. If there are other athletes like him (and there are), fuck them too. Sports needs more Babe Ruths and Mickey Mantles.. tempermental, unhealthy, alcoholics who still set records, without performance enhancing drugs.

  10. #30
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    As an ex-cyclist (I mean, I still cycle, but only as an amateur) who had to stop because the environment was getting toxic when people started turning 18-20, I have always felt a deep disgust towards this men.

    His controlling behavior towards any cyclist who "misbehaved" in the group clearly showed his unconscious strong paranoia and guilt, as much as the likely presence of psychopathy helped him get by (how can you openly admit like that that you ruined the life of plenty of people, without showing an ounce of guilt in your face?). Anyway, at least now he lost his fame.

    (I don't think he faked his cancer though, as far as I know it's been ascertained that he only has one testicle now. It's however likely that his cancer was the result of excessive usage of performance enhancing drugs)

    THIS.

    If Armstrong's Tour de France victories should be repealed, then a bloodlust of equivalent magnitude should be waged against anyone who has won that event since him (at minimum).
    While doping is absolutely widespread in cycling, pretty much nobody dares behaving like Lance did i.e. destroying someone else's career because he is "disobeying" the rules you created. That is why his story is particularly repulsive.
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