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  1. #11
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasoline View Post
    what exactly can one do?
    You can't expect legislation that'll take money away from rich people, and them to be OK with it.

    There's only one thing to do if you want that much money. And I doubt anyone wants to do it. Every successful liberal state went that route at one time though. And it has nothing to do with utopia or ideals or depending on their goodwill.

    What you do is live with it.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Not exactly true, lots of people provide rationalisations of it and tell everyone we depend on it and should be grateful they are winning the class war.

    When the whole thing eventually caves in they'll blame it on anything but the system itself, and people will buy it too.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If you consider a time and place where a faltering economy isn't coinciding with massive corporate profits utopian, you've condemned yourself to some really depressingly low standards.
    You're really treating those "go team" style posts as actually meaning anything or being seriously interested in anything?

    The people who see analysis besides cut my taxes and beat up on the poor as commie utopias dont have a lot of bring to any discussion.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoopy22 View Post
    If the graphing mimics the past it will be interesting when the next change over commences. One plague (subtracting out any type of Wat Tyler/statute of laborers interference) or development (like business figuring out the uselessness of most management) could one day (for a little while) place workers in the position where one person is able to support a family again.
    That's been my thinking for a long time, the managerial revolution is the elephant in the room when it comes to most employment trends.

    Although its still there and still going strong, its impossible to get copies of Burnham's book and its yet to be updated for the present day, his essential hypotheiss about management is sound though, shareholders, consumers, employees they've all been proven to have little or no influence on escalating pay and benefits packages in the boardrooms, even when abject failure or tax dependency has been the executives and management legacies.

    The conservative party actions in the UK to restrict public authorities budgets in the hope that it can be reversed by the recognition that when a service must be provided and savings must be made that must include management bills and not simply front line workers was something I thought was interesting but it never happened, managers in pretty blaise fashions cut the services and said to the public that the government was sending a clear message that a reduced level of service was the order of the day. People accepted it.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Not to defend them, but a simple economic analysis of the graph shows:

    - That total ouput has decreased during the great depression;
    - That companies have kept their nomial profits stable, thus their share of profits over total output has increased;
    - That, in order to keep their profits stable, companies have (also) progressively laid off workers.

    Now, you may argue against the long-term sustainabilty of this strategy, especially for a country with historically strong internal demand like the USA. But you can't argue against companies trying to keep their profits at the very least stable, since it's the definition of a "healthy" company.

    Other minor points:

    - The decoupling starts in 2001, so Obama can hardly be blamed.
    - An increase from 71 to 77% is hardly consistent with the number "171%" which has been quoted, even when trying to account for potentially different computational procedures.
    I think those are fair points, the firms are behaving exactly as they can be expected to or as they must, its a systemic failing.

    Although its not getting called that, the old myths about the economy being self-regulating and always performing at its best are still believed.

  6. #16
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think those are fair points, the firms are behaving exactly as they can be expected to or as they must, its a systemic failing.
    Well yeah, but what else can they do? If they end up with repeated losses, they will have to file for bankruptcy, and the employees will lose their jobs regardless.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  7. #17
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Not exactly true, lots of people provide rationalisations of it and tell everyone we depend on it and should be grateful they are winning the class war.

    When the whole thing eventually caves in they'll blame it on anything but the system itself, and people will buy it too.
    I'm not providing a rationalization. I'm saying to get what they want, they have to start chopping heads. The rich are not going to hand over their wealth willingly unless you make them shit their pants (while they're alive, or post mortem. Either/or).

    But since most people (especially American liberals these days) don't want to even think about that, the best to do is just live with it. There's no other civil way of dealing with it. At least, I don't think there is. It's a war, but no one wants to admit it.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Well yeah, but what else can they do? If they end up with repeated losses, they will have to file for bankruptcy, and the employees will lose their jobs regardless.
    No, I dont disagree, its precisely why I believe there needs to be some accountable agency or agencies capable of intervening when this precise pattern begins in order to correct it, price signals in a free market have not worked and I dont believe that further deregulation and "shrinking of the state" will change that.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I'm not providing a rationalization. I'm saying to get what they want, they have to start chopping heads. The rich are not going to hand over their wealth willingly unless you make them shit their pants (while they're alive, or post mortem. Either/or).

    But since most people (especially American liberals these days) don't want to even think about that, the best to do is just live with it. There's no other civil way of dealing with it. At least, I don't think there is. It's a war, but no one wants to admit it.
    It is a class war and there's no mistake, although most people are willing to vote against their interests because they hope and dream of improving their lot in such a way that their interests will be the same as those which they're up against currently.

    I wasnt suggesting you were providing a rationalisation, just that people in general do like rationalisations for the system rather than critical thinking about it.

  10. #20
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    Tax the CEO, not the corporation. Businesses are the lifeblood of an economy and should be encouraged as much as possible. Corporations are bigger, more efficient businesses. However, they should be kept in check with anti-trust regulations and such, because failing to do so would distort the playing field and discourage business instead of encourage it.

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