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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jryn1993 View Post
    The problem with that idea is that the US unfortunately is no longer a capitalist country, but a corporatist one. The two have very little in common and i think corporatism has a lot to do with most of our countries problems.
    Nawh, I think they are synomyns.

  2. #22
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    No they are two completely different things, but one pretends to be the other. In a truly capitalist country, the government does not interfere in commerce, but in a corporatist country, like the US has become, the government actively interferes on behalf of those companies that are willing to go along with their own attempts at controlling the population. That is capitalism only in the sense that the USSR was socialist. In reality both are oligarchies.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jryn1993 View Post
    No they are two completely different things, but one pretends to be the other. In a truly capitalist country, the government does not interfere in commerce, but in a corporatist country, like the US has become, the government actively interferes on behalf of those companies that are willing to go along with their own attempts at controlling the population. That is capitalism only in the sense that the USSR was socialist. In reality both are oligarchies.
    Well from what you're saying there has never been a capitalist economy in history, there never will be a capitalist country in history and to be honest its really a moot point because the sorts of reforms which would be considered "capitalist" by those ideological lights, ie no government, would only strengthen the hand of corporations and not magically result in "capitalism".

    Really that sounds like a marxist talking about the whithering away of the state on the morrow of their revolution.

  4. #24
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    I'm not going to be popular for saying this, but I don't think it's the governments fault (completely.) It's our way of viewing and relating to the world, everything is now. me. freedom. It seems innocent to start off with. "I want cheeseburger, can have what I want out of the world because I'm American" must have now. "I want happy. Need drug now. Kill that guy for some drug related thing." In pursuing happiness, we're achieving the opposite. I'm not blaming each American, we're all going to be influenced by these ideas since we're only human. However, the awesomeness we were founded on... the things we pride most, may lead to our demise in some senses.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well from what you're saying there has never been a capitalist economy in history, there never will be a capitalist country in history and to be honest its really a moot point because the sorts of reforms which would be considered "capitalist" by those ideological lights, ie no government, would only strengthen the hand of corporations and not magically result in "capitalism".
    There is a lot of definition chasing here, but there are also a lot of dimensions to argue this on.

    None the less, I would go further than you go and say that a capitalist economic cannot exist entirely; an unhampered market is ultimately the goal of capitalism (pricing information through multiple participants) and is the bottom line of a free market. However, an unhampered market requires full information, including externalities. This does not occur naturally (by definition) and requires price adjustments through non-market means. Either path results in a hampered market.

    There are massive positive externalities to having a robust medical system. Countries that embrace a less hampered approach have significant efficiency improvements. The US is essentially leaving that 'money' on the table. Insurance and so forth isn't the problem (they are not really all that profitable, % wise) in and of itself, it's where the costs are borne and the false pricing leads to an inefficient market.

  6. #26
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    People are informed enough at this point on what they should or shouldn't eat. I'll give everyone the credit that they're not mindless drones or their arms aren't being twisted by corporate and political systems. It's different with children, but adults don't need to be treated like children. I know I eat my share of crap, but it's my choice when to do it and how I keep it under control. So far, I'm doing well left to my own devices.

    edit: Of course, this would also apply to drugs and alcohol use. I don't know why I focused on eating there.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well from what you're saying there has never been a capitalist economy in history, there never will be a capitalist country in history and to be honest its really a moot point because the sorts of reforms which would be considered "capitalist" by those ideological lights, ie no government, would only strengthen the hand of corporations and not magically result in "capitalism".

    Really that sounds like a marxist talking about the whithering away of the state on the morrow of their revolution.
    Actually that's probably fair, just like there has never been a completely socialist country and there never will. Unfortunately none of the three are really sustainable on the scale of an entire nation. There will always be corruption which leads to oligarchy and eventually revolution. (Please note that I'm not advocating violent overthrow of the government) My opinion is that things are best decided on the local level. Also large scale capitalism and small scale socialism aren't necessarily incompatible. If the general precedent is that people can do as they like without outside interference then that includes the right to band together and start a commune or whatever. Corporatism or large scale socialism screws everyone though.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    There is a lot of definition chasing here, but there are also a lot of dimensions to argue this on.

    None the less, I would go further than you go and say that a capitalist economic cannot exist entirely; an unhampered market is ultimately the goal of capitalism (pricing information through multiple participants) and is the bottom line of a free market. However, an unhampered market requires full information, including externalities. This does not occur naturally (by definition) and requires price adjustments through non-market means. Either path results in a hampered market.

    There are massive positive externalities to having a robust medical system. Countries that embrace a less hampered approach have significant efficiency improvements. The US is essentially leaving that 'money' on the table. Insurance and so forth isn't the problem (they are not really all that profitable, % wise) in and of itself, it's where the costs are borne and the false pricing leads to an inefficient market.
    I agree that it can not exist, its an immensely attractive and appealing idea the free market, I couldnt possibly fault it in that respect and it does appeal positively and negatively, ie here is freedom, punish irresponsibility, but that's all it was and now its an ideology which serves the ruling/corporate special interests.

    It was much long, long before Jefferson worried about plutocrats or Roosevelt set about Trust busting.

    There's some great material on how the more remote from reality is the more revered a thing or idea is, the less a reality it is the more a fantasy it becomes. No imperfect reality is ever going to compete with a popular fantasy.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by jryn1993 View Post
    Actually that's probably fair, just like there has never been a completely socialist country and there never will. Unfortunately none of the three are really sustainable on the scale of an entire nation. There will always be corruption which leads to oligarchy and eventually revolution. (Please note that I'm not advocating violent overthrow of the government) My opinion is that things are best decided on the local level. Also large scale capitalism and small scale socialism aren't necessarily incompatible. If the general precedent is that people can do as they like without outside interference then that includes the right to band together and start a commune or whatever. Corporatism or large scale socialism screws everyone though.
    Any society which perpetuates class struggles, in whatever guise, screws everyone, call it what you want but presently its going the most undetected or the most denied within societies which in theory at least approximate or seek to approximate capitalism.

    Socialism doesnt exist, I'm not sure it ever did, besides as an idea, much like republicanism or democracy before those things were co-opted and rendered unthreatening to business interests. Capitalists are fond of describing whatever they dont like as socialist or socialism but its not, its merely statism and the statists dont even make any allusions to socialism or even socialist values anymore, because it hasnt got any appeal anymore, unlike utopian capitalism.

    The servile state which exists presently is a consequence of capitalism and socialism meeting and a new synthesis, which isnt either and is unpleasing to either camp, arising in their place.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Any society which perpetuates class struggles, in whatever guise, screws everyone, call it what you want but presently its going the most undetected or the most denied within societies which in theory at least approximate or seek to approximate capitalism.

    Socialism doesnt exist, I'm not sure it ever did, besides as an idea, much like republicanism or democracy before those things were co-opted and rendered unthreatening to business interests. Capitalists are fond of describing whatever they dont like as socialist or socialism but its not, its merely statism and the statists dont even make any allusions to socialism or even socialist values anymore, because it hasnt got any appeal anymore, unlike utopian capitalism.

    The servile state which exists presently is a consequence of capitalism and socialism meeting and a new synthesis, which isnt either and is unpleasing to either camp, arising in their place.
    I pretty much agree with that. It is completely true what you say about many people on the right (and I'm using the "political compass" definition in this case) referring to any form of statism as socialism. My father does that all the time in reference to the Democratic Party, and I find that to be inaccurate, even though I'm even to the right of him (and damn near everyone else). Maybe it's just my Ti getting hung up on definitions

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