User Tag List

First 12345 Last

Results 21 to 30 of 50

  1. #21
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,905

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You have, again, completely misunderstood me. Of course a dollar bill is just a piece of fiber that has value because we believe it does. That doesn't make wealth illusory! If you honestly believe that, I don't know how you function in a modern marketplace. Answer me this question: if wealth is an illusion, and monetary economics is a zero-sum game, how has the proportion of people in the world living in absolute poverty fallen from approximately 50% in 1950 to approximately 22% today?
    That unanswerable until I know how you are defining poverty.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    And "proportional wealth is the only wealth that matters?" That is laughable. If I leave college with $10,000 saved up, and I have $100,000 (real dollars) at age 30, but the average person leaves college with $10,000 and has $200,000 at age 30, am I poorer than I was when I started? Of course not. But that is what you are telling me. It makes absolutely no sense at all.

    No, It's obvious you are richer than you were with $10,000. The comparison shouldn't be made between you and any joe schmoe. The field of proportion is to be determined by the richest person could possibly pick and the poorest person you could possible pick. Where does your wealth stand between them?
    I'm talking about the big picture.

    *sigh* but I've really lost interest in this...
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  2. #22
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That unanswerable until I know how you are defining poverty.
    The World Bank defines absolute or extreme poverty as trying to survive on less than US $1 per day, at purchasing power parity. About 1/5 of the Earth's population is currently in extreme poverty, down from about 1/2 in 1950.

    *sigh* but I've really lost the plot in this...
    Fixed.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #23
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,905

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The World Bank defines absolute or extreme poverty as trying to survive on less than US $1 per day, at purchasing power parity. About 1/5 of the Earth's population is currently in extreme poverty, down from about 1/2 in 1950.
    I could humor you with talk of inevitable dispersion of technology as well as PPP discreprencies, but really... I'm tired.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Fixed.
    You can make snarky comments all you want. I've concluded that I'm not getting anything out of this. You certainly aren't going to get anything out of this...

    Read those books I suggested. They'll do a better job of explaining things than me.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  4. #24
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I could humor you with talk of inevitable dispersion of technology as well as PPP discreprencies, but really... I'm tired.



    You can make snarky comments all you want. I've concluded that I'm not getting anything out of this. You certainly aren't going to get anything out of this...

    Read those books I suggested. They'll do a better job of explaining things than me.
    Technology has nothing to do with productivity and wealth? OK, sure. It just arises out of nowhere, and has nothing to do with capital investment and trade and competition and innovation. You cannot be serious.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #25
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Nobody is creating wealth. That's an illusion. I do actually believe that monetary economics is a zero-sum game. The value of money is abstract and imaginery, it always will be. A dollar is a piece of paper-like cloth, with some patterns on it, of little particular practical value. All the value it has, it has only because people believe it has that value.
    A dollar doesn't actually do anything. I give a man a dollar, and there is almost nothing he can do with it that he couldn't do without it. If people listen to a man with a million dollars, they are only doing something they could have just as easily done if the man didn't have any money at all.

    You cannot make finnite additions to subjective value. It does not happen.
    For every dollar that is added to the world. every dollar that is already here gets a little, tiny bit less valuable. It will all inflate. The more there is of something, especially something with mere token value, the less people care about it. A dollar isn't any different. Proportional wealth is actually the only wealth that really matters. The proportion of your wealth is your power. Shares are power.

    And don't tell me about capital. No matter how much you say a dollar represents, the most important thing is that it is still only representing.
    Even Milton Friedman consceded that using money totals as an objective has a failed.

    In case you were wondering... The realm by which these proportions are determined is not just one country, but the whole world. You could say that Africans are the biggest losers of this zero-sum game.
    Ok, you're totally not getting it. Yes, the money supply is a zero-sum game, but the goods they can purchase are NOT zero sum. So while your 'piece of the pie' might stay constant, if economic output is increasing (more goods made available for purchase), the amount of goods you're able to purchase will increase. You're simply not understanding how zero-sum applies. It applies to the money supply, only, not to the goods (housing, automobiles, food, water, etc), which are true wealth.

    Yes, wealth is created. If someone plants an apple tree and sells those apples. Wealth was created. The pool of goods available for purchase was increased. Your dollar (if the money supply was constant), even though it buys the same percentage of goods, buys a greater absolute amount of goods. That's how people can be moved out of poverty, even though their percentage of income, in relation to the rich, did not increase. That's also why it's so important for people to work in productive segments of the economy, rather than government bureaucracy. Bureaucracies create nothing.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    ENTJ
    Enneagram
    3w4
    Posts
    6,276

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The field of proportion is to be determined by the richest person could possibly pick and the poorest person you could possible pick. Where does your wealth stand between them?
    I'm talking about the big picture.
    That's a flawed way to view poverty. Poverty has to do with having the basic essentials to live, not how you compare to the wealthiest people on the planet. The number of boats you have, compared to some other douchebag is not a measure of poverty (unless a fleet of boats was necessary for survival). Whether or not you can afford enough food for you and your family to eat is a much better definition (along with other things like shelter, transportation, etc). The problem is, our definition of poverty keeps changing. We're spoiled. Capitalism has been that successful.

  7. #27
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    3,377

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    That's my opinion.

    I in-fact, aspire to be one.

    I have met many of them. Some are greedy, most are not.

    I've e-mailed (bordering of flame-mailed) the CEO of my own company (which happens to be a Fotune 500) and not only was I not fired, but he actually listened and made changes to the company based on my (and, I am sure, many others') input.

    The world of business is competetive to be sure. There are a lot of things wrong with it, and there is stagnation, unfairness, corporate-ladder "climbing," and so on. But it is not a world seeped in corruption. Everyone in the corporation is not out to get you. "Back-stabbing" is actually a rare occurance.

    The world of financing is not wraped in greed. In fact, the driving thrust is to "make meaning."
    ...
    For the most part I agree with you. Entrepenuers and business leaders create jobs, stimulate the economy and provide consumers with quality goods and services. All of these things are well and good. However since this is in the "Politics" forum I will post my biggest beef I have with corporations:

    Corporate lobbists are destroying (or already have destroyed) our democratic/republic form of government. I don't mind that in the business arena that all people are not equal, but in the political arena all citizens should be equal. Currently citizens have little to no voice with their nationally elected officials. Instead politicians listen primarily to the corporate lobbyists that are lining their pockets. Also our population is uninformed, underinformed, or in some cases fed propoganda because of the corporations that control the televised press.

    Our government is severly broken and most people do not realize that it is because of corporations. Often times our contradictory policies are set because of corporations at cross purposes. For example many corporations complain about high tax rates, but we have high tax rates because of our ginormous military that we have because other corporations want it this way (especially Lockheed Martin). When Hillary Clinton proposes universal health care it does not resemble a working program in any other country with universal health care, instead it mandates everyone have health insurance which I'm sure the Health Insurace Companies just love. Any program which remotely helps the American citizens must get the corporate stamp of approval and this is in the best case scenario. In the worst case (like our current tax rates) it doesn't help us at all. Even Warren Buffet testified before Congress against our current tax rates, because he doesn't think it makes sense that he pays a lower rate than many of his employees.

    Businesses and corporations themselves are not evil and in fact they directly do a lot to benefit society. On the other hand corporate lobbying is a horrible evil and I would love to see it stop.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
    http://www.revoltingvegetables.com

  8. #28
    Oberon
    Guest

    Default

    Heh. The Poriferan thinks that if I'm rich, it's because ten other people had to be poor to make me so.

  9. #29

    Default

    Wow! I didn't realize my relative post rate gotten so slow that this would be several pages by now.

    I'm afraid my response to Magic would now be of little relevance.

    Still, to Magic:

    I would seriously like to understand where you are comming from. I will look into those books. I generally, like to find out how someone arives at their own world view.

    To sum up the major points of dispute:

    1) You believe that the only wealth/poverty that matters is relative wealth/poverty. True? If so, why do you say that?
    2) You do not believe that overall wealth can increase. True? If so, why do you say so?


    To LL's point:
    I agree. The corporate lobbying is out of hand. Perhaps, that should be the focus of corruption removal, not overhaulling the capitalist system.


    I have more thoughts on the topic of wealth and power. But I have essentially trimmed back to posting here during lunch and before I go to sleep, so can only make targeted comments.

    Perhaps I will start different, more focused threads on those subjects.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  10. #30
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    ESFJ
    Posts
    6,946

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    For the most part I agree with you. Entrepenuers and business leaders create jobs, stimulate the economy and provide consumers with quality goods and services. All of these things are well and good. However since this is in the "Politics" forum I will post my biggest beef I have with corporations:

    Corporate lobbists are destroying (or already have destroyed) our democratic/republic form of government. I don't mind that in the business arena that all people are not equal, but in the political arena all citizens should be equal. Currently citizens have little to no voice with their nationally elected officials. Instead politicians listen primarily to the corporate lobbyists that are lining their pockets. Also our population is uninformed, underinformed, or in some cases fed propoganda because of the corporations that control the televised press.

    Our government is severly broken and most people do not realize that it is because of corporations. Often times our contradictory policies are set because of corporations at cross purposes. For example many corporations complain about high tax rates, but we have high tax rates because of our ginormous military that we have because other corporations want it this way (especially Lockheed Martin). When Hillary Clinton proposes universal health care it does not resemble a working program in any other country with universal health care, instead it mandates everyone have health insurance which I'm sure the Health Insurace Companies just love. Any program which remotely helps the American citizens must get the corporate stamp of approval and this is in the best case scenario. In the worst case (like our current tax rates) it doesn't help us at all. Even Warren Buffet testified before Congress against our current tax rates, because he doesn't think it makes sense that he pays a lower rate than many of his employees.

    Businesses and corporations themselves are not evil and in fact they directly do a lot to benefit society. On the other hand corporate lobbying is a horrible evil and I would love to see it stop.
    The corporate income tax rate in the United States is the 2nd highest in the world, after Japan. That rate should be a lot lower. They are taxed at the same rate as individuals making millions of dollars a year. And small business owners are taxed as if they were, as well. The tax code in the United States is a mess.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

Similar Threads

  1. [ENFP] ENFPs who are NOT sensitive to criticism and AREN'T highly emotional?
    By Elfboy in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 09-01-2011, 02:02 PM
  2. [MBTItm] ISxPs are not xi and Se
    By jixmixfix in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 117
    Last Post: 08-20-2011, 01:02 AM
  3. Proof that not all languages are singable
    By Alpha Prime in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 06-05-2010, 06:10 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO