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  1. #41
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I would love to cook pancakes, make babies, and I'll have to be quiet, or else talk to myself. Because the likelihood, via the numbers, is there will not be a man worthy to be by my side.
    The "numbers"? You mean the ones based on your highly scientific study?

    http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

  2. #42
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Wow....

  3. #43
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Ok.

    I'm going to say for sake of argument that there are many 'undesirables'. Why does this happen?

    Because humans live in a bubble. In the animal kingdom, if you're not up to snuff, you die - or at least get relegated to a lower echelon.

    We cannot have such a thing on the whole because of our social structure. We keep humans around not because they are useful, but because they are humans, and we actually create a bubble to mitigate pressures that would wipe out large swaths of the population.

    Given that, we cannot pick and choose.

  4. #44
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Against my better judgement, I'm going to throw in my two cents here...

    First of all, you shouldn't be surprised, @AphroditeGoneAwry, that many men find this idea pretty offensive, laughable, or both. While I wouldn't doubt the truth of your anecdotes, that's what they are - anecdotes... and there's nothing to indicate that they're unbiased. You have many (women) friends who have men in their lives who are, shall we say, less than perfect. Have you queried an equal number of male friends about the nature of their relationships? Do you think that men would be more or less (hint: it's almost certainly less) forthcoming about verbal or physical abuse from their wives? I think that you're making some assumptions about the validity and generality of the sample from which you're basing your idea.

    Now you're right when you say that men tend to comprise the vast majority of criminals, warmongers, etc. In the case of domestic violence, it's much closer than you'd think. Studies (link) have shown that over 40% of domestic violence happens *to* men. But men are vastly, *vastly* less likely to be taken seriously as a victim - they're much less likely to report violence, especially when perpetrated by a woman, and when they do, they're often not taken seriously, or even laughed at. Men know this (also - try doing a survey of men hitting women, vs. women hitting men in popular culture - women hitting men = accepted/funny, men hitting women = crime). Of course none of this excuses poor or violent behavior by anyone, but the whole "women are good, men are bad" dynamic that you're proposing is naive at best. There are good men and women out there, and there are bad men and women out there.

    Having said that, there are issues, which cafe brought up:
    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    The theory that's making the most sense to me at 3AM is that it's just that things have changed a lot and the qualities that helped men to advance in the past are not as helpful as they used to be. We haven't figured out how to channel these qualities in constructive ways for most men yet and natural selection does not happen over night.
    Men these days often feel like they can't win. Some of this is loss of a historic bias towards men in certain fields (earning potential, employment, legal status) that frankly, men just need to deal with. Equality in those areas has been needed, and is still ongoing. But in our ever-changing technological world, some of the things that men have taken pride and excelled in (physical strength, etc.) frankly aren't very important when it comes to the thing that men always have (and still are) been responsible for in their own eyes and in those of society - taking care of a family. This difference between a man's "purpose" and his ability to fulfill that purpose can be very discouraging, and can lead to criminality, chronic laziness, etc. It's the old stress response... when anyone (animals too) gets put in a chronic situation of failing no matter what they do... they give up. This is likely the case with many "delinquent" men. I'll state again that I'm not excusing the poor and/or violent behavior exhibited by such men - but seriously addressing the issue would need to take this sort of phenomenon into consideration, instead of a "men suck, put them in prison" sort of solution. A tie-in to the lousy economy, overpopulation, etc. is outside the scope of the topic, but it would eventually come into the discussion too.

    As an exercise, just to play devil's advocate to your own argument, would you be willing to state a list of things that you *like* about men? My point is that a lot of the things that people respect about men (strength, confidence, protectiveness, willingness to risk physical harm for the well-being of others) are based off of traits that are similar to negative traits, and that become negative when taken too far. It's not simple.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #45
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    Against my better judgement, I'm going to throw in my two cents here...

    First of all, you shouldn't be surprised, @AphroditeGoneAwry, that many men find this idea pretty offensive, laughable, or both. While I wouldn't doubt the truth of your anecdotes, that's what they are - anecdotes... and there's nothing to indicate that they're unbiased. You have many (women) friends who have men in their lives who are, shall we say, less than perfect. Have you queried an equal number of male friends about the nature of their relationships? Do you think that men would be more or less (hint: it's almost certainly less) forthcoming about verbal or physical abuse from their wives? I think that you're making some assumptions about the validity and generality of the sample from which you're basing your idea.

    Now you're right when you say that men tend to comprise the vast majority of criminals, warmongers, etc. In the case of domestic violence, it's much closer than you'd think. Studies (link) have shown that over 40% of domestic violence happens *to* men. But men are vastly, *vastly* less likely to be taken seriously as a victim - they're much less likely to report violence, especially when perpetrated by a woman, and when they do, they're often not taken seriously, or even laughed at. Men know this (also - try doing a survey of men hitting women, vs. women hitting men in popular culture - women hitting men = accepted/funny, men hitting women = crime). Of course none of this excuses poor or violent behavior by anyone, but the whole "women are good, men are bad" dynamic that you're proposing is naive at best. There are good men and women out there, and there are bad men and women out there.

    Having said that, there are issues, which cafe brought up:

    Men these days often feel like they can't win. Some of this is loss of a historic bias towards men in certain fields (earning potential, employment, legal status) that frankly, men just need to deal with. Equality in those areas has been needed, and is still ongoing. But in our ever-changing technological world, some of the things that men have taken pride and excelled in (physical strength, etc.) frankly aren't very important when it comes to the thing that men always have (and still are) been responsible for in their own eyes and in those of society - taking care of a family. This difference between a man's "purpose" and his ability to fulfill that purpose can be very discouraging, and can lead to criminality, chronic laziness, etc. It's the old stress response... when anyone (animals too) gets put in a chronic situation of failing no matter what they do... they give up. This is likely the case with many "delinquent" men. I'll state again that I'm not excusing the poor and/or violent behavior exhibited by such men - but seriously addressing the issue would need to take this sort of phenomenon into consideration, instead of a "men suck, put them in prison" sort of solution. A tie-in to the lousy economy, overpopulation, etc. is outside the scope of the topic, but it would eventually come into the discussion too.

    As an exercise, just to play devil's advocate to your own argument, would you be willing to state a list of things that you *like* about men? My point is that a lot of the things that people respect about men (strength, confidence, protectiveness, willingness to risk physical harm for the well-being of others) are based off of traits that are similar to negative traits, and that become negative when taken too far. It's not simple.

    I realize men are abused, but they are by far the predominate abusers.

    And women have historically long been oppressed. And what have we done in response? Risen up and are surpassing men as we speak.

    In my domestic violence class, the teacher began by talking about how oppressed women are, and how they are therefore at a disadvantage. But I don't see it that way, though it may have been that way in the past. I see men as the disadvantaged sex and they largely have themselves to blame for it.

    No one is making them be lazy on the couch. Poor baby can't have his 6 figure career and make a huge name for himself, so he's gonna just pull down unemployment as a result. ? Women have babies, for God's sake, clean houses, wipe old people's shit, and still seem to do a better job statistically than men do who make more money and have a 'better' career.


    But I like, to some degree, your post because you are at least LOOKING at why men are falling behind. Thanks for that. Your response will be looked for...
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  6. #46
    ReflecTcelfeR
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    Before the site went down and deleted my post, I was going to eloquently describe the problem with removing testosterone from men, now I will simply say:

    If you did that, then women would also be removed. So farming men and allowing certain women to be impregnated is the only way this would possibly work, but I think we run into some ethical issues.

  7. #47
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I stand by what Jesus said:

    If your eye causes you to sin, poke it out. If a hand causes you to sin, cut if off.....



    ....If you're testosterone causes you to sin, remove it.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  8. #48
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Matthew 7:5.

  9. #49
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I see no contradiction.

    I can judge my fellow brothers and rebuke them for their sin. Just as they can call me out and rebuke me for mine.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  10. #50
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    There was a time about 4 yrs ago, I found FJs sexy. Subjective opinion enforcing, I should have known better

    But you definitly get the 'honorable member of the entp family' award for this thread, for relentlessly sticking to your statement against all odds
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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