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  1. #261
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is sophistry. Try this on for size: "Happiness is a part of life, but not one that is necessary, simply one that is reality."

    Or "Dogs are a part of life, but not one that is necessary, simply one that is reality."

    Any noun that refers to a non-fictional entity will work, here.
    It's actually different though. Something can be the way it is (reality), but then you also have the way it should be (the ideal).

    In this context, conflict is a reality, but not the ideal.



    This is a value statement, it is not merely fancy semantics.

    The converse would be a form of relativism. Are you a relativist?


    Is it a hindrance to happiness, or is it the result of different people having different ideas of what should be? Different ideas of what will make them happy?
    Yeah, happiness is ultimately very subjective. I tried to underscore that in my previous posts. Most of the time, individuals do things to eliminate or decrease conflict in our lives, which makes us happier. But I could see that many need conflict to feel alive, or for some other reason enjoy it.


    Your reasoning is tendentious, here, and it is unclear to which version of God you happen to subscribe. Google "theodicy" for a thorough discussion of the issues you disregard.
    I realize it's unfair in some degree to introduce God into an argument, because an argument is of the world and God is not provable.

    But I also believe in God or the Greater Good. And feel that there are sound reasons for doing so, not the least of which is that it gives the best explanation for our love-leaning drive and emotional foundation. This stuff ain't symmetrical, it's not a zero-sum game. It's skewed. And it's skewed toward the Good.


    Conflict is not the antithesis of happiness, certainly not in a strict sense, and I find it hard to see that as true even with a lot of leeway in interpretation. Happiness is not found by avoiding conflict or finding peace. Read up on Enneagram 9 integration/disintegration. Happiness is found (in part) by seeing conflict for what it is: neither good nor evil, but rather a set of choices. If you make the choices that are right for you (which doesn't imply selfish choices, but does imply that it's in sync with who you are, with how God made you), then you find happiness whether or not those choices result in "conflict."
    Yeah, I worded that quickly, not intending for it to be inspected so closely.

    My main assertion, back a few posts, was that conflict is definitely not necessary for being a better society, as someone had alluded to a book where the author said conflict was beneficial because it made people advance. That is likely because advance does not necessarily mean better.

    Conflict IS inevitable, but not ideal. At least not for most people, and therefore, not for society.

    And this exchange is entirely tangential to the point about whether conflict helps a society grow. I wouldn't say that conflict helps directly, but rather that conflict is a side effect of cultures and peoples interacting. The interaction of diverse peoples is what causes growth. As Newton put it, "If I have seen further it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants." In this aspect, I would say you'd be more correct to assert that conflict doesn't help growth, and likely hinders it, but that's a more temporary result of societies interacting. In general, they share knowledge and wealth and become more than they would have been without any interaction.
    Exactly. A side effect, an inevitability. But not a desired goal in and of itself, necessary for growth.

    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post

    What I do agree tho with is that one shouldnt give the notion to "be happy" too much credit, cause at the end of the day its all autosuggestive. You can be happy living in a Palace but you can be happy as a bum as well. That sounds very cliche, but I've found that cliches often aint too wrong.
    I would break this thought down into two separate ideas.

    Contentedness and Happiness.

    I refer to contentedness as that deep satisfied and grounding emotion you feel that is not tied to life circumstance. Your circumstances can change drastically, but you remain relatively fixed and .... content.

    Happiness is the more superficial feeling or thought of joy in a certain moment(s). It's bliss. We all know we cannot have bliss 24/7, yet some of us chase bliss incessantly, and usually, unconsciously.

    Hence the difference with why someone living in a palace with a harem could be unhappy (I changed up your example a bit, ent ), and why the bum can be happy (maybe it's a warm day outside and for once he's not freezing his ass off).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I don't know if this has been answered yet, but are the worthless women getting a free pass?
    No. I abandoned this thread, but no one seems to be able to let it die.
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  2. #262
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    We could use them for food. In this way everyone is useful. It could be God's plan.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #263
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Hmm. Would they taste like bacon, you reckon?
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  4. #264
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Perhaps, if they were cured.

    It might be better not to eat them. I could see business getting involved and farming them and then there'd be even more of them than before. There's really no good solution.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #265
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Perhaps, if they were cured.

    It might be better not to eat them. I could see business getting involved and farming them and then there'd be even more of them than before. There's really no good solution.


    this reminds me of a horror film from the 70's I watched when I was like 8--make that 12.




    LOLOLOL OMG this movie freaked me the fuck out. and i watched it over and over.
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  6. #266
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    It's actually different though. Something can be the way it is (reality), but then you also have the way it should be (the ideal).

    In this context, conflict is a reality, but not the ideal.
    There are ideals and then there are ideals. Some ideals are merely wishful thinking, e.g., "I wish for world peace." Others are core principles that are nearly always applicable, e.g., "Don't start a fight unless you really have to." The former denies all conflict. The latter sees a legitimate role for conflict in the world.

    This is a value statement, it is not merely fancy semantics.

    The converse would be a form of relativism. Are you a relativist?
    Not a relativist, except in the physics sense!

    The problem is that "necessary" needs context. You already admit contextually that it is necessary to deal with it (as it is part of reality). But then there's the context where it isn't "absolutely" necessary. Very few things are absolutely necessary in any context. You have to venture into mathematical proofs to find common examples of absolutely necessary things, and even then, all of those are based on axiomatic assumptions, e.g., assuming Euclidean (flat) geometry, it is absolutely necessary that the angles of a triangle add up to 180 degrees, because parallel lines don't intersect (or however you phrase the 5th axiom), but it isn't absolutely necessary that parallel lines never intersect or that they never diverge (in the larger context of all geometries).

    In real life, context keeps on changing, so that which is absolutely necessary (or absolutely true) changes to varying degrees, which implies that nothing is 100% absolutely true in a universal sense, even though there is a great deal of "almost always true."

    Yeah, happiness is ultimately very subjective. I tried to underscore that in my previous posts. Most of the time, individuals do things to eliminate or decrease conflict in our lives, which makes us happier. But I could see that many need conflict to feel alive, or for some other reason enjoy it.
    Which is why I mentioned the 9 integration issue: 9s need to realize that while most of the time, resolving conflict or avoiding "unnecessary" conflict results in more happiness, which is what 9s do by default, but there are times when 9s need to face conflict head on (i.e., engage in it rather than defuse it) in order to "resolve" it and achieve a more lasting form of happiness.

    I realize it's unfair in some degree to introduce God into an argument, because an argument is of the world and God is not provable.

    But I also believe in God or the Greater Good. And feel that there are sound reasons for doing so, not the least of which is that it gives the best explanation for our love-leaning drive and emotional foundation. This stuff ain't symmetrical, it's not a zero-sum game. It's skewed. And it's skewed toward the Good.
    Personally, I tend to believe that the "Greater Good" is often an arrogant fallacy: the belief that one's own version of Greater Good is the real and true version, and it is therefore OK to insist that everyone else subscribe to one's personal vision, as if one's vision is entirely accurate. It's why Jesus reminds us when he says, "Why do you call me Good? No one is good except God alone." Part of that implies, theologically, to me, that while we know and understand some good, we don't know all good. Thus I try to keep an open (but not very relativistic) mind w/r to what other people think is good.

    Yeah, I worded that quickly, not intending for it to be inspected so closely.

    My main assertion, back a few posts, was that conflict is definitely not necessary for being a better society, as someone had alluded to a book where the author said conflict was beneficial because it made people advance. That is likely because advance does not necessarily mean better.

    Conflict IS inevitable, but not ideal. At least not for most people, and therefore, not for society.
    I would argue that happiness isn't the ideal, either, mostly because of our necessarily skewed ideas of what comprises "happy" and "good". I find that happiness is more a side effect of finding the right path for oneself, and that conflict in varying degrees is a necessary part of finding that right path, therefore, conflict is necessary to finding happiness.

    Exactly. A side effect, an inevitability. But not a desired goal in and of itself, necessary for growth.
    It's a necessary means of growth. It's how we as a society work through our different visions of good, and allocate resources to pursue those visions.

    Another way of looking at it is that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was a lie: it let us see some good and some evil, but it didn't provide us a universal "Greater Good" understanding of good and evil. We have false ideas of what is good, and those false ideas make conflict inevitable/necessary in order to find the true good. It's fine to say that good/happiness exists when there is no conflict, but to insist that conflict isn't necessary is kind of like saying you want to start at the finish line of a marathon, regarding all of that running from start to finish as "unnecessary."
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  7. #267
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I ... think ... the difference for us is this: You believe that conflict is necessary for happiness because it will occur anyway:
    I find that happiness is more a side effect of finding the right path for oneself, and that conflict in varying degrees is a necessary part of finding that right path, therefore, conflict is necessary to finding happiness.
    and I believe it isn't necessary, just usually inevitable; something to be dealt with and to grow from but not necessary in its own right.


    Would you agree that is how we disagree? It's almost like for you conflict is some sort of catalyst and for me it's just a by-product. Two very different things.


    And I would ask you, "Okay, after you go through life a while and you work through many different kinds of conflict, and learn yourself, and learn ways to avoid conflict, what then?" Does that mean you aren't as happy because you don't have as much conflict?

    By making conflict your catalyst, that means that without conflict you cannot get started, you cannot do this thing.

    For me, conflict is more a (usually unwanted) by-product than a catalyst. Things can work beautifully and well with conflict. I don't need conflict to stay exciting or to stay edgy.


    God is the only Good, I agree. But God wants to grace us with abundant fruit. How can being graced with abundant fruit always feel hard or usually be laced with conflicts? Life does not have to be hard to be good.
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  8. #268
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I ... think ... the difference for us is this: You believe that conflict is necessary for happiness because it will occur anyway: and I believe it isn't necessary, just usually inevitable; something to be dealt with and to grow from but not necessary in its own right.
    The "because it will occur anyway" is your version of why we disagree. My argument isn't along the lines of "because it will occur anyway". I'm not sure how to phrase it in terms you would understand as I understand them.

    Would you agree that is how we disagree? It's almost like for you conflict is some sort of catalyst and for me it's just a by-product. Two very different things.
    This is closer. For me, conflict is to a (moral) life as photosynthesis is to a plant, a necessary process to get from A to B. Not a catalyst like soil or water or carbon dioxide, not an energy source like the sun, but rather the process itself. For you, it's the oxygen byproduct (waste?) of the process.

    And I would ask you, "Okay, after you go through life a while and you work through many different kinds of conflict, and learn yourself, and learn ways to avoid conflict, what then?" Does that mean you aren't as happy because you don't have as much conflict?
    You learn which fights are worth fighting. In a way, your logic would lead me to conclude that all fights are not worth fighting, that yeah, you have to do them, but it's all just a waste of time and effort and energy.

    I hold all of these to be true:
    1. If you avoid the fights that are worth fighting, you have less conflict, but aren't as happy.
    2. If you fight the fights that are not worth fighting, you have more conflict and aren't as happy.
    3. If you fight the fights that are worth fighting, and avoid/defuse the ones that aren't worth fighting, you find happiness.

    You seem to hold that only #2 is true, but #1 and #3 are false, because there is no such thing as a fight that is worth fighting.

    There will always be fights that are worth fighting, and avoiding them is the wrong path.

    By making conflict your catalyst, that means that without conflict you cannot get started, you cannot do this thing.

    For me, conflict is more a (usually unwanted) by-product than a catalyst. Things can work beautifully and well with conflict. I don't need conflict to stay exciting or to stay edgy.
    That's because you'd rather reach the good without facing the necessary conflict. I don't need the edginess either, but as an e9, I know that if I don't face the conflicts that I must, I don't become more fully me. Remember that avoiding conflict at all costs is one of the primary disintegration paths for an e9.

    God is the only Good, I agree. But God wants to grace us with abundant fruit. How can being graced with abundant fruit always feel hard or usually be laced with conflicts? Life does not have to be hard to be good.
    No, it doesn't have to be hard, but there is always a matter of perspective to be had. What makes life good is being thankful for it, no matter how hard it is. You can have an easy life and be miserable, or a hard life and very happy.

    The conflict is necessary because it comes from our blind spots, from our ignorance. Conflict is the process of resolving those blind spots and ignorance. Wisdom is the ability to find those blind spots and ignorance without having to struggle (conflict) with them. Real wisdom is realizing that no matter how wise you are, you still have blind spots and ignorance which will cause conflict for you (because they took you by surprise).

    In effect, I would paraphrase in my terms that what you are arguing is that conflict is not necessary if one is absolutely wise, while I'm arguing in return that growing in wisdom necessarily implies encountering and dealing with conflict.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #269
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry
    How can being graced with abundant fruit always feel hard or usually be laced with conflicts?
    If you felt no hunger, the fruit would not taste as sweet.



    Life is inherently infused with conflict and tension. It is essentially unavoidable and avoiding it thus becomes inherently untenable, even if desired. From the tension in your belly when you feel hungry right on up the food chain of life's experiences. Conflict IS catalyst.

    There's nothing purposeful or stimulating or interesting or meaningful about life without these forces. There is no growth, no motivation, only sloth and dependence ...



    I am curious what prompted you to believe you are a 9. Do share, either here or on my wall.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Yes. But. My main assertion is that conflict is not necessary for being happy.

    If we take Maslow's hierarchy of needs, I don't think we see 'conflict' anywhere on it.

    Conflict is a part of life, but not one that is necessary, simply one that is reality. It's more a hindrance to being happy we have to work around, solve, or go through. We think of it as necessary because it is so prevalent in our world. But conflict is antithesis to God and God is the ultimate happiness. (and heaven exists wherever God is, even that is in us in some small degree as our soul).


    It is likely that conflict might make a certain individual happy. Or that it is necessary for you. Or someone else to feel happy. I could see if one is raised with a high level of conflict, that to lose all conflict might seem to be a lack. This is a form of trauma bonding, or needing high risk behavior to feel alive. It usually stems from trauma. Or maybe you are just an 8.

    But I challenge emphatically the assertion that conflict is collectively necessary for gain. And indeed is counter to it in most cases.

    Think about it.



    And emotions are just about keeping us on track. That is it. And the truest track is God's track. Feelings and thoughts are our ego-fixations, bases upon beliefs we've laid down in our lifetime. Emotions are deeper and are our unconscious' way of setting us straight. If the truest emotion is closest to God, that would be love. And pure love. Not some perverted love. Usually when one loves, and is loved in return, one feels accepted and good throughout their body and mind. Conflict stifles love.

    God gives us challenges to make us pure like gold. But the goal is to get to a better and better place where life isn't so hard. The more we are in God's path, the happier, or more conflict-free we will be.

    Proverbs 16:7
    When a man’s ways please the Lord,
    He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.


    It seems to me that to an extent this goes along with what you're saying. At least if this verse is taken at face value. Of course, anyone wanting to could probably find ten billion other verses which supposedly offset this point, but that's the way it always is when people start discussing the Bible. Your line of reasoning, though, did seem to remind me of this verse--a verse which I find somewhat unusual.

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