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  1. #11
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    The amusing thing is that you think there is 'no alternative' until you go to Europe and see: Holy moly in a jumping jittery juniper bush! There are other western democracies that don't actually tax the hell out of their citizens and offer great services or do tax the hell out of their citizens and can offer a great deal more for less. And guess what? It's federally regulated or state regulated, sure, but it's not the Red Scare everyone's discussing. Sheesh, ya'd think it was the 1920s all over again....Sacco and Vanzetti - RUN!!!!!!!

  2. #12
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    The amusing thing is that you think there is 'no alternative' until you go to Europe and see: Holy moly in a jumping jittery juniper bush! There are other western democracies that don't actually tax the hell out of their citizens and offer great services or do tax the hell out of their citizens and can offer a great deal more for less. And guess what? It's federally regulated or state regulated, sure, but it's not the Red Scare everyone's discussing. Sheesh, ya'd think it was the 1920s all over again....Sacco and Vanzetti - RUN!!!!!!!
    I think the 80's did a number on us with the conspicuous consumption and drive to be successful. People wanted to become lawyers and doctors and businessmen - not to help people, but to make shit tons of money.

  3. #13
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    The amusing thing is that you think there is 'no alternative' until you go to Europe and see: Holy moly in a jumping jittery juniper bush! There are other western democracies that don't actually tax the hell out of their citizens and offer great services or do tax the hell out of their citizens and can offer a great deal more for less. And guess what? It's federally regulated or state regulated, sure, but it's not the Red Scare everyone's discussing. Sheesh, ya'd think it was the 1920s all over again....Sacco and Vanzetti - RUN!!!!!!!
    Ya its a huge prejudice in the minds in that case. The moment you see the state regulating things, people start screaming that its communism and feel their independence threatened. On the other hand when it comes to justice or morals in general, americans can set pretty high standards and pretty good ones at that.

    So it is a decision between independence and morality, only few people see that as opposites, but they are opposites. Independence always means that you have to be egoistic as well, cause you want to be free of obligations, as in independent. And that leads to the problem, if nobody feels obligated, the strong will pick their fee and fuck all the rest.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    So, it comes to the title of this thread. Why is Medicare so expensive?
    I think its probably deliberately mismanaged or the mismanagement isnt addressed because its within the expectations of people who want it to fail or simply dont care. Could be talking with a UK bias though as that is how all public services over here seem to be run and who governmental oversight operates.

    I would also say that more generally the trend of all government services is towards systems which are more and more means of transfering public revenue, collected from the working classes tax bills, to private share and bond holders, particularly banks, or other private hands.

  5. #15
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think its probably deliberately mismanaged or the mismanagement isnt addressed because its within the expectations of people who want it to fail or simply dont care. Could be talking with a UK bias though as that is how all public services over here seem to be run and who governmental oversight operates.

    I would also say that more generally the trend of all government services is towards systems which are more and more means of transfering public revenue, collected from the working classes tax bills, to private share and bond holders, particularly banks, or other private hands.
    Curious: How do taxes compare in the UK relative to:

    a) Tax rates to services in other European states/the USA?
    b) The services they offer?
    c) GDP?

    I'm just curious, because here's my thought. Germany has a relatively high tax rate, but offers a wide range of services. I've heard, in contrast, that the UK does not have as high of a tax rate, yet, as I understand it, they offer relatively high-quality service.

    With that in mind, it seems to me that high-quality service does not require a high tax rate. And government-based healthcare does not necessarily mean poor service.

    So there are obviously other factors involved.

    (Yes, I know I am simply throwing ideas out there and coming to no clear conclusions - that's just me thinking out loud).

  6. #16
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    It makes perfect sense that Medicare costs less than private insurance regardless of the middling details a publication like the National Review throws out there. It does because of economies of scale and because we essentially made health care a free rider problem (by letting people get ER coverage for free) which all but guarantees that public service will be more efficient than private service.

    If I were being thorough I'd actually go over their figures. However, I understand why Medicare should be cheaper, National Review fudges statistics shamelessly all the time, and their assertion here definitely contradicts the standard assessment of this problem. At this time, those three things combined are reason enough for me to not even bother.

    EDIT: Incidentally, the information I cited at Wikipedia does not appear to be strictly about administrative costs and it still shows Medicare's expenses inclining more slowly.
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  7. #17
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    @Magic Poriferan

    While it isn't specific to only medicare, this link details some of the many(and I mean many) reasons why healthcare cost has gone up in general. On average, even though we make more than other countries, we just tend to spend more per person in relevance to our GDP.



    It is potentially vague because everyone is in on the system (not just the consumers... we are talking about insurers, doctors, hospitals, medical supplies, medicine....) There isn't just a specific person or group to blame for the rising cost of healthcare because everyone is to blame for a little piece of the pie, even though the list only makes up about ~35% of the pie chart.

    Some typical reasons used to blame on the rising costs.


    The Rand Health Plan that was implemented in Medicare Part B(?) only mitigates a tiny fraction of the cost onto consumers (however much that may be.)

  8. #18
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Hrmm.

    I read something, I have no information yet on which to rate its accuracy, but at least it's something. I read that all countries with universal health care systems possess and utilize greater bargaining power to bring down prices and that's one of the major reasons we spend so much more than them. It's a suggestion I hadn't heard before.

    As for administrative costs, what I don't understand about the idea that Medicare has higher administrative costs compared to health care systems in other countries is that I thought Medicare is basically a single payer system for those who actually receive it. So why would it be paying any more money than other single payer systems? Or in other words, to what extent does Medicare have to account for different services and providers?
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  9. #19
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    America’s healthcare system is like one massive bureaucracy, unless the state smashes the mini-monopolies then America will never have affordable health care. The vulturous care and insurance providers drain the healthcare systems of market forces, needed to make healthcare affordable, by fixing prices and access to services.

    Health care in America is a cartel; the solution is not legislation but rather litigation.
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  10. #20
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    It seems incongruous that the western democracy that spends the most on healthcare seems to get the least out of it for its citizens. That probably applies to Medicare as well.
    It takes a long time to get into the proper channels, and a lot of trial-and-error to figure out your way through the red tape... then you still pay out of pocket for most things (every single time you talk to a doctor, need a medicine, need a service, etc.) and sometimes have to shell out extra money when they mess up somehow. Then they expect you to be able to afford all of the preventative measures needed to be healthy and well.

    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    It's the "Get paid and dodge having to pay" mentality that many have.

    It amazes me that there can be health care fraud. I mean, you are either sick or not, what's to be fraudulent about?? Except for the fact that the doctors are in on the game too. They want to get their paper.
    Right. If there was much less incentive to be fraudulent in the first place, I don't think it'd be done as much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    The amusing thing is that you think there is 'no alternative' until you go to Europe and see: Holy moly in a jumping jittery juniper bush! There are other western democracies that don't actually tax the hell out of their citizens and offer great services or do tax the hell out of their citizens and can offer a great deal more for less. And guess what? It's federally regulated or state regulated, sure, but it's not the Red Scare everyone's discussing. Sheesh, ya'd think it was the 1920s all over again....Sacco and Vanzetti - RUN!!!!!!!
    I really wish we were on a hybrid of sorts, which might end up pleasing a lot of people. Elderly, children, and medically disabled people getting quality government care--and everyone else (basically everyone that works) being provided basic care and paying for the prevention of ailments outside of preventative, emergency, and basic (like when you get a cold/infection and just need confirmation+medication) treatments.

    But there's a lot playing in the background.. more than I'll ever know... But I do know that it is really hard for me to do things I know need to be done when I'm broke. And America is pretty broke right now.
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