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  1. #1
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Default When you think of Nazism or Fascism what do you think of?

    I was discussing this with a friend recently and wondered if some of the themes which came up would be reflected by anyone here, I do think that in some ways the words have become simple and simplistic synomyns for authoritarianism, dictatorship and hate driven terror, the whole idea of Godwining threads and Godwin's law reflects the way that its used in that way and CS Lewis in mere christianity gave the word gentleman as an example of how a word can become unmoored from its original, fairly defined, meaning.

    I also think that the majority of people think of those things as historical, from the past and particularly from the second world war era, the regimes that people think of for instance are the axis, particularly Germany and Italy, not Albania (Zog?), Franco's Spain, Peron's Argentina etc. Japan isnt even, usually, considered to be fascist or nazi but something more uniquely Asiatic or Oriental.

    What do you all think?

  2. #2
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    I don't really know.

    Pretty much any militaristic place that is not state religious and not communist where the elite are set apart and privileged while everyone else must sacrifice to the greatness of the nation (or race/both) as a rule, or face punishment.

    I don't think the current Japan qualifies, but I'm sure it definitely used to during the war, as well as the others you mentioned.

    I can't think of any countries in the present that officially are fascist. Many contain fascist people or parties, though.

  3. #3
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    I consider Nazism a (fortunately) unique brand of ideological evil that is mostly restricted to a particular place and time because a.) it was utterly defeated and its original host (both the guilty and the innocent) were made to suffer terribly for its crimes against humanity, and b.) it was explicitly restricted to a relatively small sub-set of the global population, even as far as just the white population is concerned.

    I generally consider 'fascism' to be culturally chauvinistic majoritarian populism unchecked by classical liberal safeguards-in that sense, I consider WWII era Japan to be thoroughly fascist country.

    In otherwords, I tend to view Nazism in terms of history and ideological specifics, while I tend to view fascism in terms of common usage.

  4. #4
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    pain
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I consider Nazism a (fortunately) unique brand of ideological evil that is mostly restricted to a particular place and time because a.) it was utterly defeated and its original host (both the guilty and the innocent) were made to suffer terribly for its crimes against humanity, and b.) it was explicitly restricted to a relatively small sub-set of the global population, even as far as just the white population is concerned.

    I generally consider 'fascism' to be culturally chauvinistic majoritarian populism unchecked by classical liberal safeguards-in that sense, I consider WWII era Japan to be thoroughly fascist country.

    In otherwords, I tend to view Nazism in terms of history and ideological specifics, while I tend to view fascism in terms of common usage.
    The thing about Japan though is that while it was a wicked bad interpretation of bushido and a dictatorship I'm pretty sure they still practiced a form of deference to the emperor which is out of step with the Furher Principle or Mussolini's cult of personality idea.

    The racism, brutalism, total war were all present for sure though.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I consider Nazism a (fortunately) unique brand of ideological evil that is mostly restricted to a particular place and time because a.) it was utterly defeated and its original host (both the guilty and the innocent) were made to suffer terribly for its crimes against humanity, and b.) it was explicitly restricted to a relatively small sub-set of the global population, even as far as just the white population is concerned.

    I generally consider 'fascism' to be culturally chauvinistic majoritarian populism unchecked by classical liberal safeguards-in that sense, I consider WWII era Japan to be thoroughly fascist country.

    In otherwords, I tend to view Nazism in terms of history and ideological specifics, while I tend to view fascism in terms of common usage.
    ^ This.

    I think some of the things classical Fascism tries to promote are desirable, but the methods it uses are completely ass-backward. I think that National pride and unity are more achievable by decentralization and focusing on fixing local problem, not blind conformity and aggressive expansion. Also the promotion of people being physically fit and active, I cannot understand where the idea comes from that this can only come at the expense of intellectualism and egalitarianism.

    I think the Nazis took an opportunity to do tremendous good for the world and become the leading superpower and did the exact opposite. When I think of the things that happened during that period I can't see how the hell people could've even got into the mindset to commit the crimes they did, but the same is true of numerous groups throughout history, right up to today.

    I also find it irritating so many people act as if WW2 was literally the only thing that has ever happened in the history of Germany. When people ask where my family immigrated from and I tell them Germany they bring up Nazis 8 out of 10 times. I understand that that's what stands out but for God's sake, my family was not only already in the US but a decent amount of them volunteered to go and fight, which I'm pretty sure is true of most Americans of German descent. Then on top of that a lot of people associate my home state with Neo-Nazis bastards...

    /tangent

  7. #7
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jryn1993 View Post
    ^ This.

    I think some of the things classical Fascism tries to promote are desirable, but the methods it uses are completely ass-backward. I think that National pride and unity are more achievable by decentralization and focusing on fixing local problem, not blind conformity and aggressive expansion. Also the promotion of people being physically fit and active, I cannot understand where the idea comes from that this can only come at the expense of intellectualism and egalitarianism.

    I think the Nazis took an opportunity to do tremendous good for the world and become the leading superpower and did the exact opposite. When I think of the things that happened during that period I can't see how the hell people could've even got into the mindset to commit the crimes they did, but the same is true of numerous groups throughout history, right up to today.

    I also find it irritating so many people act as if WW2 was literally the only thing that has ever happened in the history of Germany. When people ask where my family immigrated from and I tell them Germany they bring up Nazis 8 out of 10 times. I understand that that's what stands out but for God's sake, my family was not only already in the US but a decent amount of them volunteered to go and fight, which I'm pretty sure is true of most Americans of German descent. Then on top of that a lot of people associate my home state with Neo-Nazis bastards...

    /tangent
    I dont like that either, Erich Fromm wrote about how he didnt like it either, he was a German and a Jew and thought that Germans and particularly Jewish Germans were forgotten by a lot of people, Freud and Einstein are just two of the obvious ones people forget about, there was probably a bit of narcissism involved but he thought that there was just something about the cultural synthesis between Germans and Jews which made for great theories.

    There was a whole German enlightenment though which was profoundly humanistic and libertarian, at least interested in limited government, also limited markets, Schiller or Scheller is just one author who I've got in my to be read list.

    The idea of a thousand year Reich was even originally an enlightened one and pretty utopian hopeful until it got hijacked by the nazis.

    Kurt Vonnegaut (spelling) I thought was a good writer writing about the fate of Germany after the second war, at least I liked Slaughter House 5, dont know how true to life it was, it is only fiction after all.

  8. #8
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I was discussing this with a friend recently and wondered if some of the themes which came up would be reflected by anyone here, I do think that in some ways the words have become simple and simplistic synomyns for authoritarianism, dictatorship and hate driven terror, the whole idea of Godwining threads and Godwin's law reflects the way that its used in that way and CS Lewis in mere christianity gave the word gentleman as an example of how a word can become unmoored from its original, fairly defined, meaning.

    I also think that the majority of people think of those things as historical, from the past and particularly from the second world war era, the regimes that people think of for instance are the axis, particularly Germany and Italy, not Albania (Zog?), Franco's Spain, Peron's Argentina etc. Japan isnt even, usually, considered to be fascist or nazi but something more uniquely Asiatic or Oriental.

    What do you all think?
    Anon said it already.

  9. #9
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    Ice cream and ashes.

  10. #10
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jryn1993 View Post
    ^ This.

    I think some of the things classical Fascism tries to promote are desirable, but the methods it uses are completely ass-backward. I think that National pride and unity are more achievable by decentralization and focusing on fixing local problem, not blind conformity and aggressive expansion. Also the promotion of people being physically fit and active, I cannot understand where the idea comes from that this can only come at the expense of intellectualism and egalitarianism.
    As for intellectualism and egalitarianism, fascism despises both of those. Egalitarianism especially.

    They had welfare in WWII but it wasn't to be kind. It was a way to raise up people who fit the ideal mould. It served the purpose of pulling the desirables out of the trash and helping the nation and economy for the select to benefit from it.

    They didn't do it for egalitarian purposes, because they didn't give a shit about you if you were an immigrant, or of another race.

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