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  1. #1
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Default Conditioning and psychological controls

    In the latest Bourne film, Bourne Legacy, they feature a part in which a guy working in a research facility involved with the Bourne programme just locks himself and his colleagues in one day and then shoots everyone including himself.

    The sole survivor of the incident explains about how their facility majors in the production of cognitive altering drugs and there is later in the film an agent whose cognitive drugs programme has been engineered to create low or zero empathic responses.

    In the original books I think its behaviourist psychology and suggestion rather than drugs which are used and I appreciate that's part of the more modern development of the film/themes. On the other hand Darren Brown, a stage hypnotist in the UK, has done shows in which he demonstrates how suggestable individuals can be hynotised into carrying out assasinations publically. Although I know too that Brown is a showman and these are TV shows.

    What do you think, is it possible with psychological conditioning/brain washing or psychopharmacology to make people who otherwise would not do these kinds of things? Do you think that given the right mix of manipulation and a cocktail of drugs you would do those kinds of things for instance?

    I err on the side of Orwell's analysis, which was based on Orwell's own experience, that everyone has their breaking point and everyone gives in eventually, even if they are a wreck afterwards (the joke is ultimately on big brother because broken men and women do not make for any kind of bright future, its a foundation of sand for any regime). Although I'd like to hope I'd not act so out of character so easily. Its just a thought though.

  2. #2
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    It's possible. Your mind has defensive checks against it, but they can be broken down, some much more easily than others.

    For example it's much easier to pull off on a person who needs attachment to something or somebody. This is kind of how gangs work.

    In my opinion, conditioning is at work with everyone because I think we all start with a clean slate.

  3. #3
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    I don't think that level of precision is possible. I wonder if some kind of subliminal messaging or hypnosis would be able to induce it.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

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    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I don't think that level of precision is possible. I wonder if some kind of subliminal messaging or hypnosis would be able to induce it.
    Yeah I don't think precision can be had. But it doesn't need to be.

    Mind control isn't about control. It's about getting somebody to do what you want and letting them think it was their own idea.

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    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    that motor control shit is what really freaks me the fuck out
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

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    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I have read that people who are are good at their core, will not kill. Even if, say, they have multiple personalities and their alters have enough rage to kill. Usually their core kicks in and controls them. I've also heard that hypnotism isn't going to 'make' someone do anything they don't really already want to do.

    Of course, there are many reasons people might kill, then feel sorry for it later. That is something different. I'm speaking to being made to kill when it really isn't part of *most* of your psyche.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I have read that people who are are good at their core, will not kill. Even if, say, they have multiple personalities and their alters have enough rage to kill. Usually their core kicks in and controls them. I've also heard that hypnotism isn't going to 'make' someone do anything they don't really already want to do.

    Of course, there are many reasons people might kill, then feel sorry for it later. That is something different. I'm speaking to being made to kill when it really isn't part of *most* of your psyche.
    Yes I think this is somewhat the case too, but I think it is a little different if one can be tricked or coerced into spilling blood because guilt itself can taint the core and be used as a crack to get inside. Then drugs might be used to numb the conscience and make them keep doing it, not even prescription drugs specifically for it, just ordinary mind altering or addictive substances will do.

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    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    who would make them keep doing it?
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  9. #9
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    What do you think, is it possible with psychological conditioning/brain washing or psychopharmacology to make people who otherwise would not do these kinds of things?
    Yes.

    Do you think that given the right mix of manipulation and a cocktail of drugs you would do those kinds of things for instance?
    I think my Ti is sharp enough to deal with manipulation alone, but I believe skillful manipulation combined with the right drugs could break down anyone.

  10. #10
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    who would make them keep doing it?
    Whoever asks and was the one they were made to respect that got them this way.

    Like I said, I believe that we all start out with a clean slate, and that there's a reason that one can turn into a murderer or chop the limbs off children to terrorize the population.

    Some people think that is inherent human nature and that anyone will turn into a monster if not checked by the law. I believe the opposite. I believe that everyone can begin with a luminous mind, and that influences corrupt it.

    My proof that this is not inherent is that the same kinds of violence are not universal in the world. When people choose to break the law they do so in myriad ways, and even violent regime changes greatly vary in degree as to how civil they are and what level of terrorism is taking place.

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