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  1. #31
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'm curious about this. Attachment theory and maternal deprivation explain affective conditions after a (theoretical) 'blank state'. I don't see the link between the rejecting the blank slate.
    I think part of the issue with both of those is that people greatly misconstrued them both to mean that every child absolutely must have its maternal mother 24/7 - which is simply not the case.

    On the other hand you can't toss a baby into a sterile isolation box for the rest of its life and feed it through a slot and have it turn out right even if it does survive. Yet in a lot of cases people are only just a step or two above doing exactly that.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I am beginning to suspect you are deeply conditioned by the Protestant, Catholic divide in Ireland. So perhaps your Catholicism is a visceral tribal response to your tribal enemies. And so you generalise your visceral response to anyone who critiques Catholicism. What say you, Lark?
    I think you're in a trance.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'm curious about this. Attachment theory and maternal deprivation explain affective conditions after a (theoretical) 'blank state'. I don't see the link between the rejecting the blank slate.
    Attachment drives are the writing on the slate, if everyone is a blank slate then they will not have a drive to attach to a care giver, deprivation, neglect and cruelty would be inconsequential to individual development and pair bonding later in life.

  4. #34
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Attachment drives are the writing on the slate, if everyone is a blank slate then they will not have a drive to attach to a care giver, deprivation, neglect and cruelty would be inconsequential to individual development and pair bonding later in life.
    There are natural drives but they are not necessarily self achieved in a discerning manner. Hence children will attach to nearly anything, good or bad, and hence, the conditioning that we are talking about in this very thread.

  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    There are natural drives but they are not necessarily self achieved in a discerning manner. Hence children will attach to nearly anything, good or bad, and hence, the conditioning that we are talking about in this very thread.
    To me its not the same as being a blank slate, we probably have different understandings of what it means though.

  6. #36
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    To me its not the same as being a blank slate, we probably have different understandings of what it means though.
    Children aren't really self conscious nor world conscious. That is what I mean.

    Using a process that is not initially self aware as proof of writing on the 'slate' is pretty much equivalent to using involuntary heartbeat as evidence of it.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Children aren't really self conscious nor world conscious. That is what I mean.

    Using a process that is not initially self aware as proof of writing on the 'slate' is pretty much equivalent to using involuntary heartbeat as evidence of it.
    I dont see it as the same because its a drive which may or may not be satisfied, the biophysical analogies arent perfect, although I dont see the idea of a blank slate as commendable or the idea of people being born was slates with "writing" to be necessarily prejorative either.

  8. #38
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont see it as the same because its a drive which may or may not be satisfied, the biophysical analogies arent perfect, although I dont see the idea of a blank slate as commendable or the idea of people being born was slates with "writing" to be necessarily prejorative either.
    Commendable or pejorative are irrelevant to the topic.

    It's a drive that may or may not be satisfied. True enough.

    However, there are further variables that greatly effect the outcome, such as how the drive is satisfied, and who is doing so.

    If mere drives were sufficient then children do not need guardians - but they do, because these things are not self authoring.

  9. #39
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    I think part of the issue with both of those is that people greatly misconstrued them both to mean that every child absolutely must have its maternal mother 24/7 - which is simply not the case.

    On the other hand you can't toss a baby into a sterile isolation box for the rest of its life and feed it through a slot and have it turn out right even if it does survive. Yet in a lot of cases people are only just a step or two above doing exactly that.
    Probably not, although it comes pretty close to giving attention on demand (current literature anyway)... nothing special about maternal attention specifically, from what I can tell. The attention part is fairly strongly supported though, but it'll probably be another generation before we really know for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Attachment drives are the writing on the slate, if everyone is a blank slate then they will not have a drive to attach to a care giver, deprivation, neglect and cruelty would be inconsequential to individual development and pair bonding later in life.
    This is a tricky argument. Drive could both be part or not part of a blank state; there is no particular reason why drive is not a functional part (computational component) of a blank slate mind. Additionally drives could be created/modified by expectations/perceptions of the world (desire to return to a normal state) as much as anything else, especially inside a feedback loop that involves security.

  10. #40
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Probably not, although it comes pretty close to giving attention on demand (current literature anyway)... nothing special about maternal attention specifically, from what I can tell. The attention part is fairly strongly supported though, but it'll probably be another generation before we really know for sure.
    Yeah. Keep in mind though that I'm not talking about whether attention produces 'healthy' results or not. I'm addressing the fact that the environment invariably and unavoidably produces results of any kind, period.

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