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  1. #11
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    When we enter a trance our critical mind goes to sleep and we will believe anything. And when we believe something, we think it is real.

    Religions trade on trance to perpetuate beliefs neither based on evidence or reason. And the believers act on these beliefs because they think they are real.

    So believers in Islam flew two planes into the Twin Towers with all the pride of obedient children. And believers are committing war crimes in Syria as you read, shouting, "God is Great".

  2. #12
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Whoever sks and was the one they were made to respect that got them this way.

    Like I said, I believe that we all start out with a clean slate, and that there's a reason that one can turn into a murderer or chop the limbs off children to terrorize the population.

    Some people think that is inherent human nature and that anyone will turn into a monster if not checked by the law. I believe the opposite. I believe that everyone can begin with a luminous mind, and that influences corrupt it.

    My proof that this is not inherent is that the same kinds of violence are not universal in the world. When people choose to break the law they do so in myriad ways, and even violent regime changes greatly vary in degree as to how civil they are and what level of terrorism is taking place.
    Hmm. I don't see someone holding that kind of control over another very easily or very long.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  3. #13
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Hmm. I don't see someone holding that kind of control over another very easily or very long.
    That's right, they don't control. Not like a puppeteer pulling strings. They don't have to once they get somebody to believe in it and think it is their choice all along.

  4. #14
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    That's right, they don't control. Not like a puppeteer pulling strings. They don't have to once they get somebody to believe in it and think it is their choice all along.
    Seems like the person will realize it's wrong. But there is much evil in our world. So maybe not.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  5. #15
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Seems like the person will realize it's wrong. But there is much evil in our world. So maybe not.
    Some times they realize it is wrong but are convinced that something else is more wrong. That's kind of the basis of war actually...

  6. #16
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Edward Bernays and Propaganda

    Edward Bernays, one of the most influential of Americans, invented Public Relations, the Engineering of Consent, and Enlightened Despotism.

    Edward worked with a vast number of clients including President Calvin Coolidge, Procter & Gamble, CBS, the United Fruit Company, the American Tobacco Company, General Electric, Dodge Motors, and the fluoridationists of the Public Health Service.

    Edward gave us modern advertising and conditions our psyche today.

  7. #17
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I have read that people who are are good at their core, will not kill. Even if, say, they have multiple personalities and their alters have enough rage to kill. Usually their core kicks in and controls them. I've also heard that hypnotism isn't going to 'make' someone do anything they don't really already want to do.

    Of course, there are many reasons people might kill, then feel sorry for it later. That is something different. I'm speaking to being made to kill when it really isn't part of *most* of your psyche.
    "Quick sir the reactor is being breached!"

    "Dont worry Scotty....the core will hold, just let it sit there simmering, it will know what to do"

    "I cant do it Captain, it cant take the suggestion!"

    "Dammit man, it's a core, they hold things in, that's what they do"

    "Are you a warp engineer Captain? Im telling you this baby is gonna blow!"

    "Nah just let it sit there like a big, fat baby on warp-roids, it will hold, the core is inherently built to hold afterall"

    "Pff....away with ye, ya fat beer-bellied strumpet muncher!"

    "Delay that remark Scotty, it seems the core has reached a decision"

    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #18
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Some times they realize it is wrong but are convinced that something else is more wrong. That's kind of the basis of war actually...
    Most of the time, however, their decision to kill is not based on reality, but subjective fear, as we've seen of late. And even war scenarios represent this. Killing is a REAL wrong. The feeling like one needs to kill usually stems from belief of something that is false, usually based upon fear...i.e. if we don't take down this person/country/dictator then our way of life might/will be affected. In the case of Hitler, this was obviously true because he was on a murdering rampage targeting a certain group with obvious hate, and he needed to be taken down/out. It's not usually so cut and dried, however. Usually, killing stems from some FEAR of something that ties into an invalid belief system in someone that would never probably amount to, or culminate in, that fear really coming true.

    The difference in knowing when killing is warranted is when society as a whole says, "Yes, this is a warranted fear and, more than fear, reality." Versus just a person or vigilante group saying, "This is a potential threat and we will enact evil but call it necessary."

    But evil people usually are cowards. That is because they are slaves to their fears, not reality. So. Yeah. The circle/cycle of violence continues....

    But I'm glad you brought up how it all ties back into beliefs. What we have learned and internalized as belief serves to make our individual values, and we feel, and usually act, according to that. You can see the danger when we've learned a belief that is wrong>If we use only our internal barometer for right/wrong, or even those who have taught us wrong, we will not be able to see the truth. That is why an external framework (the commandments, etc., for one example) or other healthy influences are so necessary in helping one make the right decisions.

    An abusive man will convince himself that his wife who left him deserves to die because all his life he's been taught that a woman is his possession and he must make her mind at all costs; and to some degree he is worthless if he cannot do this (and maintain a home, etc). So in his mind he is justified to kill her; it seems like the only way. But to everyone else, we can see the insanity of it. This is an example of what I mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    "Quick sir the reactor is being breached!"

    "Dont worry Scotty....the core will hold, just let it sit there simmering, it will know what to do"

    "I cant do it Captain, it cant take the suggestion!"

    "Dammit man, it's a core, they hold things in, that's what they do"

    "Are you a warp engineer Captain? Im telling you this baby is gonna blow!"

    "Nah just let it sit there like a big, fat baby on warp-roids, it will hold, the core is inherently built to hold afterall"

    "Pff....away with ye, ya fat beer-bellied strumpet muncher!"

    "Delay that remark Scotty, it seems the core has reached a decision"


    Not gonna say what I'm really thinking here...
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  9. #19
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Most of the time, however, their decision to kill is not based on reality, but subjective fear, as we've seen of late. And even war scenarios represent this. Killing is a REAL wrong. The feeling like one needs to kill usually stems from belief of something that is false, usually based upon fear...i.e. if we don't take down this person/country/dictator then our way of life might/will be affected. In the case of Hitler, this was obviously true because he was on a murdering rampage targeting a certain group with obvious hate, and he needed to be taken down/out. It's not usually so cut and dried, however. Usually, killing stems from some FEAR of something that ties into an invalid belief system in someone that would never probably amount to, or culminate in, that fear really coming true.

    The difference in knowing when killing is warranted is when society as a whole says, "Yes, this is a warranted fear and, more than fear, reality." Versus just a person or vigilante group saying, "This is a potential threat and we will enact evil but call it necessary."

    But evil people usually are cowards. That is because they are slaves to their fears, not reality. So. Yeah. The circle/cycle of violence continues....

    But I'm glad you brought up how it all ties back into beliefs. What we have learned and internalized as belief serves to make our individual values, and we feel, and usually act, according to that. You can see the danger when we've learned a belief that is wrong>If we use only our internal barometer for right/wrong, or even those who have taught us wrong, we will not be able to see the truth. That is why an external framework (the commandments, etc., for one example) or other healthy influences are so necessary in helping one make the right decisions.

    An abusive man will convince himself that his wife who left him deserves to die because all his life he's been taught that a woman is his possession and he must make her mind at all costs; and to some degree he is worthless if he cannot do this (and maintain a home, etc). So in his mind he is justified to kill her; it seems like the only way. But to everyone else, we can see the insanity of it. This is an example of what I mean.
    Yes. I think love is the key there, because humans need to bond.

    Some times the bonding occurs in a twisted way, which leads to destruction - they are willing to kill for their group as a way of belonging.

    Other times humans kill because they are in distress due to having no such bond with anyone.

  10. #20
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Yes. I think love is the key there, because humans need to bond.

    Some times the bonding occurs in a twisted way, which leads to destruction - they are willing to kill for their group as a way of belonging.

    Other times humans kill because they are in distress due to having no such bond with anyone.
    Yeah, I like your insight. Wanting to be loved is key. And we use our beliefs to get us to love, which is what we all ultimately want. But if our beliefs are inherently flawed, as may the case with an abusive or neglected childhood, then we might not be able to bridge that gap at all and find love, or healthy love.

    It's so sad. That we actually choose to be unloved due to our actions, stemming from our inherently flawed beliefs.


    So when we abuse or neglect or abandon our children, we hand them false beliefs--about themselves and others--that affects their ability to love and be loved.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


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