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  1. #21
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    So you're saying that an employer has to make up his or her mind forever about choose people to work with? Team dynamics are of paramount importance. That's why I brought up the notion of a garantee: return it with a refund, basically. as long as the person is competent and the reason for the dismissal are based on personal incompatibility
    Now of course the issue with that is that people on the job market would have more job security than people entering it or between for an extended time. Which is already the case, it would however heighten this tendency.

    Also the employer wouldnt really get a fair treatment, having to deal with the uncertainty of whether or not the person will fit the job and give extra security.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
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    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
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  2. #22
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Sometimes the process fails. Sometimes, stability works as an incentive to inefficiency. Sometimes, there is someone more qualified out there. That's how things work.


    Simple: Just as employees are allowed to leave their jobs in order to find a job on which they are comfortable working with their co-workers, the employers also should have an equivalent right.


    Well, that's capitalism.
    Please don't turn this into a "Because Daddy said so" argument. I agree that employers should have a comfortable place to work. Which is why if there is a *professional* reason to fire the person, they have the right to do so. The woman didn't get plastic surgery the day after she was hired or anything. He knew full well how she looked before he hired her. The system didn't fail him here. Why is she the one losing her job because he changed his mind about how attracted he was to her? Why should a guy lose his job just because his boss wants a female crew for his own lusty pleasures of working with an all female crew? Why should a lady be rejected for a job based on NOT being attractive? None of these reasons are professional, valid reasons.

    Team work is a great part of working in businesses that require it. But it is not the #1 reason why people hire other people. There's an entire section of work for that sort of thing: Temps. Temp-to-hire is all about seeing if the person will fit in or not. When you hire someone, though, it should be because you thoroughly went through the process and put real thought into employees. Employees rely on things like job security to do things like get a house, and a car, and the other essentials.. If they buy a house 6 months into the employment because they've been told they do good at their job, and then they're fired over something NOT work related, they're fucked and it wasn't even anything they could have done to change it.

    I don't think anyone should reserve the right to fuck anyone over for personal reasons. A lot relies on jobs and job security.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

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  3. #23
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Does teamwork include trying not to be attractive to people? Of course, with these laws, you could be fired for not trying to be attractive to people.

    I actually don't think allowing employers full power with their capriciousness is inherently a better idea. Maybe they should be restricted on who they can fire. That does mean getting stuck with incompetent people that one is justified in firing, but it also means a better chance for competent people who cannot be justly fired. It seems at least like an even trade off to me.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #24
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Why should a lady be rejected for a job based on NOT being attractive? None of these reasons are professional, valid reasons.
    Uh. Well. Sure, if you change human nature I'm sure that would work. But that's not how human beings are.

    otherwise u'd be attracted to all 'nice smart funny guys' even if they look like mucus.
    Professional, personal, it's all human nature and society.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #25
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Not to mention, employees are not given a DIFFERENT but equal job, nor monetarily compensated for the 6 months it might take them to find a new job of the same status and pay, or any medical bills they accrue between jobs that isn't covered by the health insurance they no longer have. They can't compensate them for things like seniority, or the 3 months it takes them to work at a place before benefits kick in, or location, or the benefits that company offers versus another company. There are a lot of aspects that just cannot be compensated for? Asking employers to compensate people adequately that they don't like working with for personal reasons is no good for either team:
    1. Employers are fucked out of money from employees purposefully acting a fool and playing into their employer's pet peeves because they know they'll be compensated.
    2. Employees are pressured into making seriously out-of-bounds changes from employers that know they'll keep their job at many costs. So, suddenly, it's not an 'official' requirement to wear make up and short skirts at work.. but.. hey.. who's to say you'll keep your job if you don't since I can't work without short skirts?

    Personal business really shouldn't be in the work place anymore than absolutely necessary. Being 'distracted' by a pretty girl you probably hired because she was pretty in the first place is hardly necessary.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

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  6. #26
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    He wasn't gay. We know that this wouldn't have happened if the employee were male because we know the employer is a straight male who cited her attractiveness as the reason, so it's something that only could have happened because of her gender. The most broadly we can interpret this would also include his gender and orientation as a factor, but that doesn't really make it much better does it? Firing someone for a cause that amounts to "I'm heterosexual, so I'll have to fire you" isn't any more sane. Surely interpreting things through a legal framework does not require us to be retarded?

    Anyhow, maybe it is legal. A lot of insane shit about what women can do is law in the various Islamic states. If it is legal, this is a signal to change the law.
    What changes to law do you propose? Make "attractive people" a protected class? If she was a homely woman she would still be working there.

    Yes, the woman got a raw deal in this situation. She didn't do anything egregious, aside maybe from not having the foresight not to get buddy-buddy with a boss who has an insecure/jealous wife. Doesn't mean the law needs to change because of it. How many good workers got laid off because boss's wife nagged him to hire her nephew instead? Do you want to outlaw nepotism in private business as well?
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  7. #27
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Uh. Well. Sure, if you change human nature I'm sure that would work. But that's not how human beings are.

    otherwise u'd be attracted to all 'nice smart funny guys' even if they look like mucus.
    Professional, personal, it's all human nature and society.
    This is why we have laws.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #28
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    This is why we have laws.
    I know, I never said the opposite. Leviathan blabla all that, statistics, history, civilization. I kinda had a few years to go over it. What's your point?
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  9. #29
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    What changes to law do you propose? Make "attractive people" a protected class?
    It seems to me like that wouldn't be necessary. It should be possible to cover this under either gender, or if we stretch it, under orientation. If there's something wrong with the law that allows this to happen, it's that it could somehow allow this case to slip out of those grounds, and I would investigate where that's happening rather than try to add another protected class.


    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Yes, the woman got a raw deal in this situation. She didn't do anything egregious, aside maybe from not having the foresight not to get buddy-buddy with a boss who has an insecure/jealous wife. Doesn't mean the law needs to change about it. How many good workers got laid off because boss's wife nagged him to hire her nephew instead? Do you want to outlaw nepotism in private business as well?
    It's an issue of enforcing nepotism laws. They'd be great if you could enforce them.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  10. #30
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Uh. Well. Sure, if you change human nature I'm sure that would work. But that's not how human beings are.

    otherwise u'd be attracted to all 'nice smart funny guys' even if they look like mucus.
    Professional, personal, it's all human nature and society.
    The work place has already changed human nature. It isn't in my nature to wear certain clothes, act a certain way, not to cuss, not to lose my temper... none of these things are in my nature. Either was any of the things the army requires of me. I adjusted to the work environment. If I wanted a job, I had to change my nature. I'm a straight woman working in an all-male environment. Do you think I've never come across an attractive male I had to work around? But my attraction is not what's important--the work is. You suck it up and deal with it just like anything else in life. My nature is not to act like a chipper, kind lady at work--but if I want to keep my job as a receptionist at a day spa because it was all I could find at the time, that is how I will act. People going to a day spa don't really like straight forward, blunt, apathetic people greeting them on their day off at a place they paid for partially for customer service.

    If things were ran on human nature, I could see this being valid. But again and again the law and the professional environment and society itself stresses a change in people and their nature. I don't see why this is somehow an exception to policy. It doesn't matter if I am attracted to army guys, if I work for the army, I am going to put that attraction aside and do my job.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

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