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  1. #71
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Just to shake things up a little, and not directing this question at anyone in particular, but why are we willing to defend WBC's rights to demonstrate/free speech, but we aren't willing to defend a gay couple's right to Civil Union? Or, to put it another way, we don't want laws against WBC because it could erode our freedoms, but we do against gay marriage because....it won't?

    From what I've seen, for the most part, the discussion so far has been civil and productive. I would like to see it stay that way, with people explaining the logic or rationale behind their thinking on the matter. Show me where my thinking is wrong, if it is.

    ETA: It seems that we are willing to draw the line in some instances but not in others. Why? Wouldn't the same arguments apply in one instance as in the other?
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  2. #72
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    So many fake smiles and repressed emotions in that WBC documentary. What I see is how they mentally run from doubt, because doubt is the enemy, doubt is what keeps you from salvation. A basic human reaction, fears are the problem, and the solution is what makes us comfortable, never confrontation of what's behind the fear.

    I don't particularly delight in seeing them getting retaliated against, either. I don't blame families for their vulnerable reactions at funerals. But what excuse does everyone else have for being so readily offended and taken by the whims of a handful of people who really hold so little power or influence except for which the public grants them?

    At some point you have to decide whether these people are worth getting upset over or not. With national exposure, this is a group of less than 100 people in a nation of millions, they hold no office or seem to have any special powers. They are totally marginalized, their presence is a nuisance. I'd do whatever was possible to minimize their contact and interference with other groups. The tradeoff our society has with totalitarianism is that we can't just pack them up to a Gulag or otherwise deny them privileges to an extent that would force all of us to be vulnerable to classification as "undesirables" at the whim of a government that might turn back on us.

    There are other options, but you'd need to change things.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  3. #73
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    As far as Americans are concerned (or as far as I'm concerned as an American), our opinions of groups such as this don't translate into how we think they should be dealt with legally. While we disagree with their message, tactics, and reasons, we're extremely sensitive to censoring anybody whether we agree with them or not. It's not our place to say whose message is right or wrong. We certainly won't be criticizing people for taking non-legal action against them, such as Anonymous giving them the business, but to pass any kind of censorship of them through legal or political channels crosses a line Americans tend to not be friendly towards.
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  4. #74
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Just to shake things up a little, and not directing this question at anyone in particular, but why are we willing to defend WBC's rights to demonstrate/free speech, but we aren't willing to defend a gay couple's right to Civil Union?
    I assume you're speaking about the aggregate population?

    In a nutshell, there is a hierarchy of rights, and free speech stands just about at the top. And yes, diluting the free speech of the WBC would have a much greater impact on overall rights protection than the banning of civil unions (not that doing so is justifiable on its own merits).

  5. #75
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Did anyone else read the 'Addicted to Hate' story that @Lexicon put up in that OP?

    Not saying that should by-pass the law or that it should convince people to sign the petition....it's just that the story is a shame. I used to believe they were real life trolls as well...but I think it is more true to say that they are scared kids, even as adults, under the shadow of an ogre.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  6. #76
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    why loose them when you can use them:


    brilliant charity ventures and freedom of speech aside, while i disagree with them on every level, i really don't think this is a simple cut issue, because frankly, they have a very important cultural value: shock and disgust. and no, and i am not being sarcastic. out in the open expressions of hate fade into the sidelines as fast as any taboo can grow, but actual hate fades very slowly (slower the longer people live), and so do its more subtle expressions, and yet, just because something disapears from public speech and fades into the excluded social situation and then to the whispers between parents and children, it doesn't stop hurting people. people have a harder time social neworking, people have a harder time opening their own businesses, people don't get hired or promoted as often, people have a harder time feeding their families, people having children with more reasons to be bullied... it wanes until it becomes an old joke nobody but your grandfather remembers, and even he doesn't get it anymore, but with each year it takes longer, more people will suffer from it.
    people like that? they accelerate it like no other, they accenuate the shame people feel for hating, and each time those people go to another event and protesting, there will be people who will be afaid of associating themselves or their children with such people by expressing any similar thought.

    so yes, they are useful towards a positive end that can reduce the suffering of many, whether they intend for it or not. does the end justify the means? the humiliation of those whose loved ones died in service? the destructive force it will have on the mental health of there own children? i honestly don't know. i am in no saying i know the answer, but i do know i can't just brush them off as a pure negative based off a disgust with there intent and beliefs.

    as for child abuse, that should be dealt with as a matter of it's own, just as it should have being if they weren't so fucking high profile.

  7. #77
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    I say we just pool's closed them. maybe something like photoshopping their leader making out with a dude or something?
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  8. #78
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    Organise numerous gay bars to descend upon their church during prayer. A bit of sodomy will put things into perspective.

  9. #79
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Funny that you say that, because that's how they make their money. Fred Phelps is a lawyer (or at least used to be before getting disbared) and so are many of his adult children. They engage in legally allowed trolling, hoping some local official stops them without a just legal reason, at which point they will sue, OR somebody assaults them, at which point they will sue as well. They also take minor children to those pickets and they get hurt in the process when somebody inevitably chucks a bottle at their general direction.

    As a far as I am concerned, tax exemption should be strictly for groups whose primary purpose is to engage in charitable work. Although I share your sentiment that spreading religion is not charitable work in and of itself, and this cherry picking of who gets tax exemption is off putting.
    Someone finally got it right.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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