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  1. #61
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    I can't take that White House petition page seriously at all. Read through some of the petitions that have got their signatures and read through the replies. It's just a neat little organized way for 'We The People' to be blown off and ignored but make us feel all warm and fuzzy like we've made a difference.

    No amount of legislation will ever change as the result of that webpage.
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

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  2. #62
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    I can't take that White House petition page seriously at all. Read through some of the petitions that have got their signatures and read through the replies. It's just a neat little organized way for 'We The People' to be blown off and ignored but make us feel all warm and fuzzy like we've made a difference.

    No amount of legislation will ever change as the result of that webpage.
    Yeah, I was skeptical of it, as well, but I figured it couldn't hurt to use what's there, even if it makes little to no impact..
    Stupid idealistic feelers, you know.
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
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    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

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  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Definately the latter of the bolded. I am no Randian Objectivist. However, as a conservative I will support whatever political alliances are necessary. Right now I often side with libertarians on national policy as any national social policies are infected with corporate interests and civil religion.

    I can't find my way to supporting socialism broadly as I have the same problem with ceding the means of production to the state as I have with ceding the power of violence. However, the smaller the state (and NI is a rather small state right now even if not completely sovereign) the fewer the problems as the leaders of the state are more likely to have a sense of social duty to their fellow countrymen. In America the DC bureaucrats have little affection for middle America even demeaning it by referring to it as "fly over country."

    Besides I don't think private ownership of the means of production is the main cause of all the evils that arose from capitalism over the last century and a half. I think the problems largely stem from usury, central banking issues, and corporatism (the ability to limit one's liability to one's investment.)
    I think those are the evils of financial capitalism and perhaps capitalism would be very different without that element, Hilaire Belloc and other writers like that make persuasive cases for that being so but I cant help but believe that's dealing with the bigger picture.

    I dont equate socialism with state ownership, I know that many people do, including many socialists but I dont think the state is a means for introducing or furthering the goals of socialism. This is not how capitalism was introduced or furthered, although the state has managed to co-opt most forms of economy one way or another. There's some validity to the idea that what exists presently is a different species of beast to either socialism or capitalism and those things are celebrated in theory or as systems of values because they are both increasingly remote from reality.

    Bureaucracy, or rather managerialism, because those things are not strictly the same things are the major social problems as I see them. The form of popular sovereignty proposed by some socialist theorists are the only ones which I think could supersede this, its much more and much different to sorts of limited sovereignty in consumerism and even the more robust personal responsiblity spin of capitalists and conservatives.

    Ownership, private ownership, of the means of production is part of the issue but as the history of nationalisation, state ownership and mixed economies have shown this is often just the same dog with a different collar, I think there are ways in which both nationalisation or privatisation could have served beneficial ends but they have both been used tactically by politicians and elites to line their pockets or serve their interests or those of their friends.

    In the example of nationalisation in the UK many of the industries were used as sources of jobs for "blimps" or other officer class individuals who were no good as managers, then when privatisation was deployed it was a huge cash in and responsibility dodge for the government without any long term improvement in service or pressure on the taxpayer really being a prospect.

  4. #64
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I assume then that there are some lists for enforcement (already known), but none for the legal system. There is no classification for a hate group that enables legal exceptions; this petition ultimately would do nothing.



    That's not how the hate crime definition works; the crime must be motivated by the categorization of another.
    I know how it works. I disagree with the assumption that a crime motivated by race or sex is worse than one that is motivated by jealousy or obsession or envy or focused hate or any other reason.


    I believe there are two main reasons for it. First is for social support: treating the motivation negatively indicates that society does not condone the motivation which can be important in dealing with any form of discrimination, and the second is the general practice of using motivation as threat/punishment meter similar to pre-meditated and varying degree of emotional states.
    I don't think it's necessary to have hate crimes; but if you insist, shouldn't we make that list of unacceptable discrimination a bit longer?
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  5. #65
    Member Isis's Avatar
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    wow.
    These weirdos are a special sect of wack job all their own. Sheesh. Good luck to them getting passed the pissed off sane people!

  6. #66
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Got it. You limit power of the people by taking all power to do or promote violence away from the people and ceding it to a centralized government.
    In most democratic countries democracy came after the the King has disarmed the population and established the King's Peace.

    However in the USA democracy came while the populace were still armed and to this day and in spite of gun deaths the populace of the USA won't give up their guns.

    So we might say democracy came too early to the USA.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Of course given the fact that you don't think civilians should have the power or ability to promote violence themselves it's only reasonable to say that the control they have over the military and police is really at the mercy of the good will and pleasure of those forces.
    Here the military and the police are under the control of our democratically elected civilian government.

    Our military have the support of our people, but should our military rise against our democratically elected government, the whole of the population would rise against the military. This is an extremely unlikely scenario.

    For instance, as I write, our democratically elected Minister for Defence, Stephen Smith, has instituted a Judicial Enquiry into the military. This is unwelcome and unpleasant for the military but we know for certain our military will follow the Minister's orders. And it is the same for our police.

  8. #68
    Tier 1 Member LunaLuminosity's Avatar
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    Eh, the best we can probably do is already what we're doing: watch them closely and wait for them to weaken enough to lose their composure and slip just the tiniest bit over the legal line.

    Or rather than wait, speed up the process with our own counter-trolling of the legal sort...... the experts are already on that one as well

  9. #69
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    isn't the WBC probably helping to push people away from religion?
    wails from the crypt.

  10. #70
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkrow View Post
    isn't the WBC probably helping to push people away from religion?
    Not sure about that. They're SO far out there that people of faith can say, "These guys have nothing to do with my faith," and just distance themselves. Even the religious activists could just use them as counterpoint; "Look at us, we are people of faith, and we are NOTHING like WBC in our methods; we think it's horrible picket the funerals of dead children and soldiers."
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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