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  1. #81
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    give a monkey a gun, and he will shoot.

  2. #82
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    The shooter was probably some self-entitled little selfish prick who wanted to show his mother that he was a real man because she demanded that get his shit together.

  3. #83
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giggly View Post
    The shooter was probably some self-entitled little selfish prick who wanted to show his mother that he was a real man because she demanded that get his shit together.
    It sounds more like he was a deeply disturbed kid who people recognized needed mental help, and he never got it. He had serious health problems, like a nervous system disorder that made it impossible for him to feel pain. Those kind of people can't even take a shower without someone checking the water temperature for them - because they can't feel whether it will scald them. His parents were going through a divorce. All the interviews about him are saying 'I'm not surprised', 'He's been disturbed since he was 5', etc. People knew he hated his parents and was depressed.

    James Holmes of the Aurora, Colorado movie theater shooting was the same way. When his mother was contacted about the fact that her son was suspected as the killer, she responded 'You've got the right person.' She KNEW her son was disturbed and so did everyone else who was in contact with him.

    Every time this happens, people raise the pitchforks and shout 'guns guns guns'. While I'm not opposed to revising gun control laws, why is it that the focus can't be on mental health care, too? Making access to mental health professionals easier, and trying to get rid of this stigma associated with mental health issues.

    I know in light of this tragedy, people want to be angry and demonize the killer. And I know it's hard to try to paint them with the victim brush, too. But I see a bunch of people who knew this kid needed help and he never got it.

    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

    ~

  4. #84
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    It sounds more like he was a deeply disturbed kid who people recognized needed mental help, and he never got it. He had serious health problems, like a nervous system disorder that made it impossible for him to feel pain. Those kind of people can't even take a shower without someone checking the water temperature for them - because they can't feel whether it will scald them. His parents were going through a divorce. All the interviews about him are saying 'I'm not surprised', 'He's been disturbed since he was 5', etc. People knew he hated his parents and was depressed.

    James Holmes of the Aurora, Colorado movie theater shooting was the same way. When his mother was contacted about the fact that her son was suspected as the killer, she responded 'You've got the right person.' She KNEW her son was disturbed and so did everyone else who was in contact with him.

    Every time this happens, people raise the pitchforks and shout 'guns guns guns'. While I'm not opposed to revising gun control laws, why is it that the focus can't be on mental health care, too? Making access to mental health professionals easier, and trying to get rid of this stigma associated with mental health issues.

    I know in light of this tragedy, people want to be angry and demonize the killer. And I know it's hard to try to paint them with the victim brush, too. But I see a bunch of people who knew this kid needed help and he never got it.

    Excellent points, Patches, and Jennifer, yours made a load of sense, too. Here's a link you all might find interesting: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/adam-lanza-20-deeply-disturbed-kid-article-1.1220752 Another article I read said the mother had purchased those weapons. I know for a fact that is a military rifle and those hand guns...those guns are designed for one reason only, to conceal and kill. So, my point is that these aren't hunting weapons. They're not even self-protection weapons. These are weapons designed for killing. So why would they be in the house with a mentally disturbed child? And one report says more weapons were recovered from the house. Why would a middle class woman with a deviant child have these? I'm sorry to rant. It's just puzzling my mind. It seems there are a lot of pieces missing in this puzzle.

  5. #85
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    The focus is too much on mental health care imo. It's one of the issues gun-control opponents apparently love to bring up (along with more people packing, which rings hollow in a kindergarten killing). Focus the attention on the killer and what a 1 in a million freak he was. While people are groping around for suggestions on how to reform the health system they aren't clamouring for gun-control. But really I'm sure if any one of us went on this sort of killing spree those left behind would find it easy to connect the dots to us being mass-murderers. Kind of quiet? Some mental health issues? Not all that many friends? Intelligent? Lots of time spent squirreled away in our rooms on the internet? Killer!

    Why is it that America alone of the western world has such deadly consequences for mental health issues? Yes I agree that the attention should also be on mental health care, but I think the attention should mainly be on gun control. It seems you have 2 options: a highly trained, ubiquitous, empowered mental health system able to discern the difference between tween angst and incipient mass murder, or better gun control laws. I know which I consider more realistic.

  6. #86
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    The focus is too much on mental health care imo. It's one of the issues gun-control opponents apparently love to bring up (along with more people packing, which rings hollow in a kindergarten killing). Focus the attention on the killer and what a 1 in a million freak he was. While people are groping around for suggestions on how to reform the health system they aren't clamouring for gun-control. But really I'm sure if any one of us went on this sort of killing spree those left behind would find it easy to connect the dots to us being mass-murderers. Kind of quiet? Some mental health issues? Not all that many friends? Intelligent? Lots of time spent squirreled away in our rooms on the internet? Killer!

    Why is it that America alone of the western world has such deadly consequences for mental health issues? Yes I agree that the attention should also be on mental health care, but I think the attention should mainly be on gun control. It seems you have 2 options: a highly trained, ubiquitous, empowered mental health system able to discern the difference between tween angst and incipient mass murder, or better gun control laws. I know which I consider more realistic.


    I'm not an opponent of gun control laws by any means. My family members are big into hunting and have a lot of hunting rifles... But I see no good reason that people need assault rifles in their homes.

    Consider the same day in China, a man stabbed just as many children. We can't focus on gun control alone. To me that's like treating a symptom and ignoring the disease.

    I remain vehement that the bigger issue here - for this situation and several other types of crime - is that angsty teenager's and young adult's problems are dismissed and ignored. When a kid or a teenager is disturbed, stressed, dealing with anxiety, it seems to be dismissed as typical, a phase, or shrugged aside in a 'oh their problems aren't that bad' kind of way. And while that may be the case, why can't we use those years as a time to teach those individuals how to cope with stress and anxiety, how to manage their emotions? That way when they become adults and face larger burdens - deaths, financial problems, relationships - they have some sort of groundwork for knowing how to deal with those burdens.

    Right now we operate in a world where most people have never been taught those things. Depressed adults running around with no clue how to manage their stress, half of which won't seek help because they either can't afford it or because of the stigma associated with it.

    I think it would have significant impact on mass killings, suicides, and a number of other crimes. Read up about the US's privatized prisons being a money-maker, and how those groups lobby against any legislation that would seek to provide people with adequate mental health care. Because those programs would decrease the prison population, and thus decrease their profits. I fail to believe those groups would be throwing millions and billions at politicians to block adequate mental health care if there wasn't significant evidence that it would decrease crime.



    edit: "Why is it that America alone of the western world has such deadly consequences for mental health issues?"
    I'd argue that the cultural differences in many eastern countries (regarding dishonor, etc) makes and impact on mental health issues manifesting themselves as suicide rather than violence. Suicide rates in countries like South Korea, Japan, China are higher than the States.
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

    ~

  7. #87
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    Consider the same day in China, a man stabbed just as many children. We can't focus on gun control alone.
    Are they all dead?
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

  8. #88
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    Are they all dead?
    They aren't, but I hardly see how that makes it all fine and dandy to dismiss the impact that proper mental health care could/would have on decreasing occurrences like that.
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

    ~

  9. #89
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patches View Post
    They aren't, but I hardly see how that makes it all fine and dandy to dismiss the impact that proper mental health care could/would have on decreasing occurrences like that.
    This isn't just about services available and access. This is also about autonomy as many of the people who need the help the most don't want it and the bar for involuntary hospitalization and medication is pretty high in many states.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #90
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    If you're speaking to me directly, I'm not dismissing that at all. I think the solution is complex and several issues need to be addressed. Of them, healthcare is one. But with that said, Reagan made it so we can't force people to take their meds, so that's clearly an issue. However, there is certainly a lot to improve upon.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
    Haight

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