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  1. #541
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    You don't believe that children are born with any mental illness? That to me falls within the category of nature.

    Autistic children do have the potential to become violent. I've seen it. But I NEVER said that the condition directly correlated to mass murders. I mentioned it because it is an example of a condition where common social cues are not always accurately read by the individual.

    You not "seeing" mentally disabled children doing anything is not enough evidence to rule anything out.

    There are obviously other conditions. In any case, my main point is that these conditions do not correlate to parenting, but fall under the category of nature when exploring the nature vs. nurture argument.

    Usually organic mental illness is not associated with violence. That is shown in the literature.


    Violence is a result of an abusive traumatizing environment due to suppressed rage.
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  2. #542
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Autism is a spectrum disorder. Your cousin is likely much further on the lower-functioning end of the spectrum than his father. And it's entirely likely that there are other things going on with him besides autism. In any case, I suspect he would not have the wherewithal or the motive to plan and execute a mass murder. When autistic people are violent, it's usually with their family members or caretakers and a result of having a lower frustration threshold and/or not so great coping mechanisms (which can often be taught, but on the lower functioning end of the spectrum it's much harder or sometimes impossible to teach them).

    Absolutely, it's more of a random reaction rather than some devious, master plan.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  3. #543
    ByMySword
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    ^^^^^ On a side note. I made this post in another thread and thought it deserved to be posted here.

    Last night I read what was probably one of the most informative articles I've ever read in my life on firearm legislation. It touched on some subjects that I knew about or even thought I knew about and expanded on them in great detail.

    The very fact that its written by a Liberal gun owner makes it all the more relevant. I strongly recommend that anyone interested in issue of banning assault weapons, please take the time to read this. If you do not, I believe you are cheating yourself out of relevant knowledge directly correlating to firearm legislation.

    http://kontradictions.wordpress.com/...-ill-tell-you/

  4. #544
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    @ByMySword: The link didn't work, it tried to link using the abbreviated URL.

    The working full URL of the article is here:
    http://kontradictions.wordpress.com/...-ill-tell-you/

    EDIT: I had a lot of sympathy for the author after reading this:
    Rather than agreeing with both, I tend to end up arguing with both. It’s exhausting to always feel like I’m apologizing for the other “side”.
    Yeah. Putting yourself in the middle typically just makes you twice the target. Alas.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #545
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    You don't believe that children are born with any mental illness? That to me falls within the category of nature.

    Autistic children do have the potential to become violent. I've seen it. But I NEVER said that the condition directly correlated to mass murders. I mentioned it because it is an example of a condition where common social cues are not always accurately read by the individual.

    You not "seeing" mentally disabled children doing anything is not enough evidence to rule anything out.

    There are obviously other conditions. In any case, my main point is that these conditions do not correlate to parenting, but fall under the category of nature when exploring the nature vs. nurture argument.

    Of course parenting takes a role in these situations, but it should not be relied upon solely. Too many of you are taking what I said out of context and as the end all. This was not my intention.
    This I agree with. People with autism can become violent. But it is actually at a lesser rate than the general population, and when they do it's usually a lashing-out-in-the-moment thing, not planned violence.

    I also agree that there are people who are parented attentively and still turn out to do horrible things due to some organic deficit in the brain. We used to blame the mother for autism- now we blame her for every instance of psychopathy/sociopathy.

  6. #546
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Usually organic mental illness is not associated with violence. That is shown in the literature.
    Like nonfiction?

    Violence is a result of an abusive traumatizing environment due to suppressed rage.
    I think that is a source of violence, but not the end all. You are oversimplifying the concept of violence greatly.

    Violence is not just an action against a victim, but the victim's potential defense against the assailant.

  7. #547
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    This I agree with. People with autism can become violent. But it is actually at a lesser rate than the general population, and when they do it's usually a lashing-out-in-the-moment thing, not planned violence.
    Right. I never directly linked them to mass murder.

    Aphrodite was placing too much emphasis on parenting and ignoring conditions that exist despite parenting. Autism was simply an example such a condition.

  8. #548
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    Right. I never directly linked them to mass murder.

    Aphrodite was placing too much emphasis on parenting and ignoring conditions that exist despite parenting. Autism was simply an example such a condition.
    That remains to be seen. And likely never will come to light. As so often happens.


    I'm not sure why everyone around these parts wants to protect parents so much, or the likelihood that abuse happened to those who become murderers.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  9. #549
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    Right. I never directly linked them to mass murder.

    Aphrodite was placing too much emphasis on parenting and ignoring conditions that exist despite parenting. Autism was simply an example such a condition.
    I gotcha now. Thanks for clarifying.

  10. #550
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I'm not sure why everyone around these parts wants to protect parents so much, or the likelihood that abuse happened to those who become murderers.
    I don't feel I'm protecting parents. I have not disagreed with you that parenting is a factor. In my post on desensitization to violence in The Gun Appreciation Thread, I directly blamed parenting with no mercy.

    I just felt you were leaning TOO much on it while not looking at the other issue.

    Quit treating this as such a black/white issue when its not. Parenting is obviously a factor in many cases, but not all. So too, conditions exist despite parenting which are a factor.

    I feel like this is a Republican/Democrat debate and I'm the only Libertarian. Everyone keeps trying to push me into their party based on my varying belief systems. Come on!

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