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  1. #511
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    The UK makes guns, yes, it has a huge arms manufacturing industry, BAE Systems for example.

    Not many people own guns though. Even less use them. And not many schools get shot up as a result.

    It didn't go as far as Australia because gun ownership was never as popular.
    Well that's true and I guess people are more sensible about them on the whole.

    But London still has Holland & Holland which makes fine sporting rifles and shotguns. They make the .700 Nitro Express.

    That's a monstrous round made to shoot really big animals. The round is just a little shy of what comes out of that beast that Disco posted earlier. One could take down a plane with this thing practically.

  2. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    But I think it's the last sentence where it's obvious the dialogue is being hijacked for someone else's agenda, with the wording of, "male aggression has been forced out of elementary school..."
    Well, despite that the facts presented there are obviously false, I do think that there is a facet of truth in the diminishing of masculinity in not only schools, but society. As a former teacher, I've seen it myself. I'm not advocating the use of machismo to solve every issue, I'm just saying that the "boys will be boys" saying has indeed gone out the window.

    I do understand why that has happened. But idealistically speaking, wouldn't it be nice if two kids got in a fist fight, they fight it out, they're taken to the principal's office, and they talk it out? That's what happened with several of the kids that I fought when I was in school, and with many we ended up becoming good friends. By nature, I think there is a primitive need for boys to act this way. Unfortunately, due to the many other complexities of this issue, its no longer this simple. Now they feel the need to bring a gun or knife to a fist fight. Sad, really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    Drugs are prevalent around the world and no government has really successfully stopped their circulation. Not the case with guns.
    And that may work in countries where the culture isn't inherently tied to firearms. I don't believe it would work in America. At least not until the domestication of the American citizen is complete. lol

    What works in one country doesn't necessarily work in all. Each of these societies has a different history and has different cultural norms and taboos. Its basically the same as saying that democracy will work in every country. It just isn't so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    The UK makes guns, yes, it has a huge arms manufacturing industry, BAE Systems for example.

    Not many people own guns though. Even less use them. And not many schools get shot up as a result.

    It didn't go as far as Australia because gun ownership was never as popular.
    I realize its easy to make the connection that generalized gun ownership equals school shootings, but I think that is falling too much into the trap of inevitability just because its happened to work out that way in these past instances. I think that its ignoring too much the aspect of failure to identify mentally unstable people in America and curtailing the availability of firearms to them.

  3. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Well that's true and I guess people are more sensible about them on the whole.

    But London still has Holland & Holland which makes fine sporting rifles and shotguns. They make the .700 Nitro Express.

    That's a monstrous round made to shoot really big animals. The round is just a little shy of what comes out of that beast that Disco posted earlier. One could take down a plane with this thing practically.
    I don't doubt it.

    Uruguay exports corned beef from Fray Bentos. Nobody in Uruguay even knows what corned beef is.

  4. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    I realize its easy to make the connection that generalized gun ownership equals school shootings, but I think that is falling too much into the trap of inevitability just because its happened to work out that way in these past instances. I think that its ignoring too much the aspect of failure to identify mentally unstable people in America.
    How can anyone doubt the correlation?

    Lots of countries have mentally unstable people. Britain is full of them and they aren't all "identified". How could they be without expensive and intrusive, almost totalitarian, policies, which gun-loving anti-state conservative would hardly want.

    On the other hand, if he couldn't have picked up his mothers gun which was lying around like a bread-knife, then he probably couldn't have killed all those kids.

  5. #515
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    I don't doubt it.

    Uruguay exports corned beef from Fray Bentos. Nobody in Uruguay even knows what corned beef is.
    Yes but they aren't exports. I mean they do export yes but they have a showroom in London that's like walking into a fine art gallery - no, more like walking in to get a hand tailored Armani suit. Beautiful place with wooden guns in wooden and glass cases.

    I'm really not trying to make any comparisons here though. Just trying to illustrate how it's about perspective.

  6. #516
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Gah, here we go again with the second amendment people, probably the most vocal amendment people out there. Wished they'd be more vocal about other amendments besides just the second.

    This remind me of a stupid article that came out today with CNN

    "If they want to ban guns, why not ban them in movies, television and video games?" asked reader Bill Smells in an iReport article inviting ideas for halting mass shootings. "Why do we allow the media and entertainment industries to glorify weapons and killings?
    Uninformed parents make uninformed decisions that impact others. What I find funny about this statement is that the parents have control of what they buy their children.

    YOU
    have the choice whether to buy your children Call of Duty or some "violent" video game. YOU have the choice whether to give your children allowance or not. You have the choice whether you want a t.v., a computer, a laptop, a cellphone, and all those other things. If they cry that you are being unfair to them, than it sucks to be them. Make that kid do something else.

    However, YOUR children have the option to use YOUR GUN. YOU can either leave it conspicuously in your house or TRIPLE LOCK them. YOU have the choice of whether to buy a gun or not. NOT your children, unless they are shady like that, or unless they go to a friends house with a parent that is just as stupid.

    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Yeah. Speaking of the drug war, this is interesting.

    Did the drug war stop drugs? No, because the US is a central haven and a corridor. It's also a central customer. We've got channels from South America, and channels from Asia through Hawaii. Drugs and guns come to the US, and through the US to other countries, and US guns are stolen/traded and shipped south or elsewhere.

    It's just kind of different here I think. In older societies it's kind of like "well the law says we have to do this, so I guess we better listen." Here it's more like "Are you kidding? Let's see you try it!"
    The first 10 amendments are a big deal, and people often make a big deal about them. It is that powerful. I'd rather the U.S. not become like the U.K.

  7. #517
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    It's not about guns at all. It's about parents being able to get away with abusing their children and nobody stopping it.

    If we spent as much money on child abuse education and prevention as we do on the freakin gun control lobby, we could maybe be effective against child abuse, and wouldn't see some of these outbreaks of wild men that go off and mass murder people.




    Sorry to interject, I just got mad for a second there. Mostly I'm just swooning enjoying this gun thread.
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  8. #518
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    Lots of countries have mentally unstable people. Britain is full of them and they aren't all "identified". How could they be without expensive and intrusive, almost totalitarian, policies, which gun-loving anti-state conservative would hardly want.
    I actually wrote one some of my ideas for reforming the process of identifying mentally unstable people in the link I posted earlier in this thread. Despite my typical anti-totalitarian policies, you could possibly interpret some of my ideas as such. However, I believe that if effectively carried out, it would help curtail this violence. I don't necessarily like it, but its a sacrifice that I think would work while still preserving the right of mentally stable people to procure firearms for their own SAFE personal use.

    My short answer here is that as you said, no one has access to firearms in these countries. So yes, mentally unstable people do not have access to them whether they are identified or not. Does it solve the problem? Yes, it appears it does.

    But it is not necessary to throw out the entire barrel because of a few rotten apples if these people are more successfully identified.

    On the other hand, if he couldn't have picked up his mothers gun which was lying around like a bread-knife, then he probably couldn't have killed all those kids.
    True, and the fact that he had access to them is a fault on the mother's part. However, it appeared that no one had any idea of him being disturbed. If there was, perhaps she would have taken more proper precautions with her firearms. There are always going to be irresponsible people. But there are just as many if not more responsible ones, especially when it comes to firearms.

    I am not for punishing the many because of the few. I realize that this is a value-based opinion and in the case of opposition, the two sides may have to agree to disagree and remember that both sides are trying to find solutions to the same problem. We just have two ways of looking at it.

    Furthermore, as has already been stated on this thread, much of gun legislation being proposed would not have prevented this tragedy. I do think that other better identification of mentally unstable individuals combined with better personal gun safety on the mother's part would have. Connecticut is 4th in the US on the Brady Scale. The state has also outlawed the sale or transfer of AR-15s since 1993. The only legislation that would have possibly helped would be restrictions of high capacity magazines, but that would not have prevented any deaths. I could also add that the removal of Gun Free Zones or more school security could have helped prevent this as well.

    Of course even in the case of more school security working successfully, you would still possibly be left with a dead 20 year old kid, which is still a loss in my book.

    Would the complete ban of firearms end mass shootings? Possibly, but this is not inevitable, either. Even in the most extreme situation: if tomorrow all citizens turned in their legally acquired firearms, there would still be the illegal gun trade. While most of these would be used within the context of criminal dealings, who knows who could acquire them for whatever reason. And the main reason for the continued existence of firearms harkens back to its inherent connection to American culture.

    Most unfortunate, although mass shootings may be curtailed more, assault on innocent victims would continue. They would be denied the means of personal protection. And with the 2005 Supreme Court decision that I may have mentioned earlier (can't remember), police have no Constitutional duty to protect anyone. I believe that if you take away the possibility of citizens having the means of self defense, that homicide and assault in this country would skyrocket.

    You can call it sick, sad, etc. But that's the way I see it. Because of this, alternative solutions must also be looked at besides the ban of all firearms. Even if that means stricter gun control (of which my hypothetical suggestion of psych evaluations for gun or CHL owners is categorically included, as I discussed in the link I provided earlier).

  9. #519
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    The second amendment says:

    -A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    The gun rights people seem very confident of a very specific, non-explicit interpretation of that statement.
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  10. #520
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Yes but they aren't exports. I mean they do export yes but they have a showroom in London that's like walking into a fine art gallery - no, more like walking in to get a hand tailored Armani suit. Beautiful place with wooden guns in wooden and glass cases.

    I'm really not trying to make any comparisons here though. Just trying to illustrate how it's about perspective.
    What perspective? I never said nobody can own a gun in the UK. But it is very limited who can own one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    I'd rather the U.S. not become like the U.K.
    Each to their own. A lot of massacre survivors and victims relatives probably disagree. They are "price" society is prepared to pay for a "freedom" whose benefits nobody has realistically defended.

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