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  1. #411
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    It was not a normal "hunting rifle", it was a rifle which is commonly referred to as an "assault weapon" - at least it has been reported in the media as such and it doesn't look like a hunting weapon to me. A military-style weapon adapted for "home defense" and for people who like playing with this type of thing. It is exactly the type of weapon that is now being discussed for regulation/ban - even, it seems, by certain members of the NRA!

    And the above ignores the fact that America has massive levels of gun availability which have a plain co-relation with its huge levels of gun crime.

    It is not accurate to say that this is purely a gun issue but I think it's pretty disingenuous to say it has nothing to do with guns.
    Again, the guns didn't cause the attack, and he could have accomplished just as deadly an attack with other perfectly legal weapons. The issue is that someone wants to attack schools, not that guns cause people to kill.
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  2. #412
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    Again, the guns didn't cause the attack, and he could have accomplished just as deadly an attack with other perfectly legal weapons. The issue is that someone wants to attack schools, not that guns cause people to kill.
    That seems less likely. Enough less likely to make a good point.
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  3. #413
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    To be honest I dont like the fact that incidents like this encourage some people to think they should interfer with law abidding and peaceable people who just so happen to be gun owners, the focus is all wrong, it wont bring anyone back either.

  4. #414
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Wow, I check in to TC today and I have 8 notifications and all for this thread. I knew I shouldn't have got into this argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    How do you define assault rifles?

    Four of my nieces and nephews live in a neighborhood in Alaska that regularly experiences incursions of bears from the nearby wilderness....I'm not the least bit interested in giving those bears a 'sporting' chance-I want my sister (not a marksman) to have reasonable capacity to kill them.
    This is perhaps a legitimate reason to have one. I don't know enough about guns to say whether another gun would be sufficient.

    As for handguns, they are the most practical gun to use for self-defense, both in the home and, especially, outside of the home (a rifle can't exactly fit in a woman's purse). And a technical 'semi-automatic' capability is crucial for the self-defense of people who aren't marksman or are facing multiple threats-they're not going to have time to cock the gun each time they need to fire the weapon.
    I don't believe in guns for self-defence. It's tiresome to both give those same old arguments as to why (and probably is to hear them too), but here's the gist:

    - If you severely restrict the number of guns out there (legal and illegal - because more of the former leads to more of the latter) there is little need to protect yourself with one
    - It has been proven time and again in studies that in most cases where people are attacked a gun would not have saved them
    - It requires extensive and regular training to be able to fire a weapon safely and accurately in heightened situations - because your brain slows, you freeze up and blood drains from your extremities. Therefore all except the small number who have such training would not genuinely benefit from a gun in such circumstances.
    - The number of people who genuinely save their own lives through shooting someone is minimal in comparison to the number of gun deaths through accidents and homicides. ie the costs outweigh the benefits.
    - Private gun ownership doesn't work as a deterrent; it simply creates escalation. Criminals just get bigger and better guns, or just shoot people off the bat to save themselves the trouble.
    - A gun isn't a magical bullet proof vest. Having one doesn't stop people shooting you.

    But I fear I will want to stand bashing my head against the wall if I go down this path and get into this sort of argument. So I'll think I'll leave it there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    SK, banning guns would simply change how people get them. If they want a gun, they'll get it. It's not difficult.
    Where do you think those other guns come from? All or almost all of those illegal weapons were once legal (and I bet the vast majority were manufactured in America). Those weapons were then illegally sold and become part of the underground market. It's not difficult to buy such guns because there are too many legal weapons out there in the first place.

    And if 80% of deaths are suicides, then I'm at a loss for what you're going on about. Or do you want to take the right away for people to end their own life, too? I think people have a right to blow their own head off. It's their life. Not mine.
    No, I was merely remarking on the fact. I was looking at the stats on this Wikipedia page and saw that our suicide rate drives up our overall rate significantly. It does so for the US too.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    How about those who use them just to shoot paper targets or old washing machines?
    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Sport and recreation are legitimate reasons.

    Shooting my AR is ridiculously fun.

    And with something like 3.5 million other civilian owned AR-15's floating around, the rest of the shooting public seems to agree.
    The costs to human life outweigh the recreational benefits. Sadly, it's the same old story: the idiots ruin it for everybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Actually I'm not arguing that they have a legitimate purpose. All I was doing was correcting the misconception that one must spray bullets.

    Do I think there's a legitimate reason to use them for hunting? I don't think there really is. In my mind I kind of question it.
    My apologies. I see now that you were merely playing devil's advocate.
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  5. #415
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    Again, the guns didn't cause the attack, and he could have accomplished just as deadly an attack with other perfectly legal weapons. The issue is that someone wants to attack schools, not that guns cause people to kill.
    I don't think anyone argues that guns are the killers and not the people wielding them.

    But as Magic says... srsly? A semi-automatic spray rifle isn't going to increase your kill rate drastically, compared to many other forms of weaponry?

    Some weapons have much higher kill rates and intimidation factors than others.

    I wouldn't be surprised if a multi-pronged approach was most effective to reduce the number of deaths.
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  6. #416
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't think anyone argues that guns are the killers and not the people wielding them.

    But as Magic says... srsly? A semi-automatic spray rifle isn't going to increase your kill rate drastically, compared to many other forms of weaponry?

    Some weapons have much higher kill rates and intimidation factors than others.

    I wouldn't be surprised if a multi-pronged approach was most effective to reduce the number of deaths.
    Actually my morbid side informs me that in this particular case the assault rifle didn't matter much because he targeted children.

    Once the adults were taken out he would have had all the time in the world to do reloads, keeping them trapped... and slaughtering them one by one, regardless.

    In other cases though this might matter.

  7. #417
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I'm really happy that this event might draw attention to the need for stronger psychiatric care more-so than the gun control thing. I have reservations about whether or not gun control does anything based on the statistical evidence I've seen. But whenever this debate comes up, it evokes such incredibly stupid arguments in defense of gun ownership that I turn red. Truly, among the dumbest arguments I've ever known to have common currency. All comparably dumb arguments usually have something to do with delusional, fanatical religious devotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Actually my morbid side informs me that in this particular case the assault rifle didn't matter much because he targeted children.

    Once the adults were taken out he would have had all the time in the world to do reloads, keeping them trapped... and slaughtering them one by one, regardless.

    In other cases though this might matter.
    He shot himself when he heard first responders approaching. His time would have been fixed regardless of what weapon he carried.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #418
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm really happy that this event might draw attention to the need for stronger psychiatric care more-so than the gun control thing. I have reservations about whether or not gun control does anything based on the statistical evidence I've seen. But whenever this debate comes up, it evokes such incredibly stupid arguments in defense of gun ownership that I turn red. Truly, among the dumbest arguments I've ever known to have common currency. All comparably dumb arguments usually have something to do with delusional, fanatical religious devotion.



    He shot himself when he heard first responders approaching. His time would have been fixed regardless of what weapon he carried.
    Well what I mean is he would have the 1 or 2 seconds to do reloads without being charged by somebody in the process. It's less time but not significantly less...

    Also in a classroom with children even a pistol is overkill. They had no chance no matter what....

  9. #419
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    Any opinion I put forward will be torn apart or misconstrued, so I won't fall into that trap. If that makes me a troll, then so be it.
    However, you haven't put forth anything substantive either. I checked.
    So calm down and offer something other than talking points and cut-n-paste. State something definitive and I'll rebut it.
    It will be torn apart because you apparently have opinions so weak they can't stand up to things like facts and critical thinking, two things that most of the "ban all guns" crowd lack. I have to assume that includes you, but we'll never know because you haven't shared your secret opinions yet. Thanks for not reading any of my posts.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  10. #420
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Overall, it doesn't sound like he had a high opinion of his ability to control a situation... or the degree of control he required to feel in charge was extremely high and easily shaken:

    • He shot his mom in the head while she slept.
    • Smashed all his computers so that no one could access them.
    • Carried semi-automatics.
    • Made young children his primary targets.
    • And killed himself at the very first sign of potential interference.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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