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  1. #401
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    But as this is an international forum, and to see people who refuse to accept a correlation between massacres, and the fact that any idiot can buy a gun like it was "candy", is an insult to the intelligence.
    It's an even greater insult to intelligence when you tell people that banning guns is a realistic solution. Obviously it's a bit harder to kill 26 people in short period of time when you're using a steak knife, but banning new sales of assault weapons is not effective... there are already millions of assault weapons in the hands of private citizens. There was a study once that showed the amount of time between the purchase of firearms and the use of those firearms in a crime. For rifles it was over a decade, based on that information, how does banning assault weapons now affect the ones that were bought in, say, the 1990s?

    So lets say that banning assault weapons is a good first step, and that tightly regulating sales of other guns is a second step, what is the third step? That's the question no one here has even attempted to answer. Any takers at all or is this going to continue being another cat talking to a dog conversation?
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  2. #402
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    Have a look at this by Rod Dreher from The American Conservative:

    Adam Lanza & American Exceptionalism

    Some suggest that the US has more mass shootings than other high gun-ownership societies because American culture is much looser, and American society much less closely knit. It’s harder to fall through the cracks as a misfit in other countries. But it’s also the case that it’s harder to rise to the heights than in America.

    This is what Alex Massie is getting at in his nuanced and deeply insightful meditation on the meaning of Newtown, and why it is “a very American tragedy.” I think he’s onto something. Excerpt:

    I suspect that, perhaps in ways that are almost too awful to contemplate, these kinds of spree shooting are the dark side of the limitless American capacity for reinvention. The same culture that has helped permit or foster the most dizzying, varied, awe-inducing society the west presently knows is the same culture that incubates these horrors. Self-realisation is part of the American essence. Sometimes that has a terrible side too. (I think you could make some comparable points about the American religious experience too: this too often seems antiquated to european types but it is real and equally diverse.)

    If, as seems likely, these kinds of shooting spree have become more common in recent years this too may be a feature of a culture in which the divides between those who conspicuously have and those who palpably have not have rarely been quite as great or, worse, made so apparent to those who do not have. Modern media – and technology – are part of this though not, of course, all of it.

    Because what strikes the foreigner most about the United States is its variety. Indeed variance may be its most significant quality. This owes something to it being a country of 300 million people but I fancy a country of 300 million Swedes (even if spread across a comparably sized landmass) would be a very different place indeed. This, coupled with the American predilection for individualism, has helped make the United States a country of magnificent wonders and jaw-dropping failures. Its highs are very high and its lows exceptionally low. This, if you like, is a feature, cause and consequence of American exceptionalism. Perhaps.
    Massie talks in his column about how, like it or not, Americans subdued the frontier with their guns. They are an inextricable part of who we were, and thus who we are. A couple of years ago, when I was reading Empire of the Summer Moon, S.C. Gwynne’s stunning book about the last of the Comanches, I kept marveling at how dangerous life on the frontier was for settlers, even as late as the early 20th century. Indian raids were real, and incredibly bloody and violent — and that’s to say nothing of lawlessness among the settlers themselves. When this book came out, I was living in Philadelphia, and I sincerely regretted not taking the time when I lived in Texas to go see some of these places where the settler forces and the Comanches clashed.

    Again, the most remarkable thing was how recent all this was. Quanah Parker, the great Comanche chief who finally surrendered to the whites, did so in 1875. He moved with his people to a reservation, and before he died in 1911, had been a hunting partner of Theodore Roosevelt’s. Guns made all the difference in the defeat of the Comanches, and whatever you might say about the wars between European settlers and Native Americans, had you lived on the frontier in the 19th century, having a gun may have made the difference between your family living and dying, or perhaps your little girl being carried off in an Indian raid, and raised as a Comanche (as was Quanah Parker’s mother). Indeed, Gwynne writes that Cynthia Parker’s grandfather was castrated and mutilated by raiding Comanches as her grandmother was forced to watch. These atrocities were common. As Gwynne writes, “The logic of Comanche raids was straightforward: All the men were killed, and any men who were captured alive were tortured; the captive women were gang raped. Some were killed, some were tortured.”

    Guns were absolutely critical to the survival of European settler civilization. It is unreasonable to think that this almost primal bond with the gun would pass so quickly, so cleanly, and so hastily out of the American psyche. Massie is right: We are exceptional this way.

  3. #403
    morose bourgeoisie
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    ^^chock full o conservative homilies; another misdirection away from any sense of responsibility or action.
    Note the multiple weak arguments; ironically a 'shotgun pattern'; maybe one will stick and change minds, or more likely, keep like-minds thinking exactly the same thoughts...

  4. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    ^^chock full o conservative homilies; another misdirection away from any sense of responsibility or action.
    Note the multiple weak arguments; ironically a 'shotgun pattern'; maybe one will stick and change minds, or more likely, keep like-minds thinking exactly the same thoughts...
    You sir just won the ignore lottery.

  5. #405
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    You sir just won the ignore lottery.
    Just for having an opinion different from yours?
    Sir, I am honored.

  6. #406
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    Your vitriol belies a lack of respect I'm not particularly in the mood to deal with.

  7. #407
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    Just for having an opinion different from yours?
    Sir, I am honored.
    As far as I can tell, you have no opinion and you've hid every time someone(me) has asked to you put forth your opinion. It's okay to troll tho, I do it 2 sumtimes.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  8. #408
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Your vitriol belies a lack of respect I'm not particularly in the mood to deal with.
    Don't take a criticism of that article as a criticism of you personally. But that thing is nothing but propaganda. that's my opinion. Deal with it. If you feel the need to 'ignore' me, I'm fine with that. YOu have that option.

  9. #409
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    As far as I can tell, you have no opinion and you've hid every time someone(me) has asked to you put forth your opinion. It's okay to troll tho, I do it 2 sumtimes.
    Any opinion I put forward will be torn apart or misconstrued, so I won't fall into that trap. If that makes me a troll, then so be it.
    However, you haven't put forth anything substantive either. I checked.
    So calm down and offer something other than talking points and cut-n-paste. State something definitive and I'll rebut it.

  10. #410
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Funny, my kids never could walk into a store and buy handguns along with their Snickers and Now n Laters. Let's keep the hyperbole down a little, 'kay?

    ...

    I think comparisons are interesting.

    http://www.theegglestongroup.com/wri...tats/index.php

    Real Time Estimate
    Top 7 Causes of Death
    Since 1 Jan, 2012
    Cause ..................Annually .....To Date
    Tobacco: .............529,000 .....510,744
    Medical Errors: ......195,000..... 188,271
    Alcohol Abuse: ......107,400 .....103,694
    Vehicle Accidents:... 42,000 .....40,551
    Suicide:................. 29,350 ......28,337
    Drug Abuse: ...........25,500 ......24,620
    Firearm Homicide:.... 10,828 .....10,454



    yeesh. How about those psycho doctors?
    Politicians and the masses alike have always focused on problems that are less than the worst. When was the last time you heard anyone talk about vehicle fatality as a pressing issue and throw out policies to solve it? On the other hand, terrorism, which is pretty much irrelevant, has had plenty of attention.

    I suspect that the tobacco deaths compared to the other drug deaths are inflated by thorough research. I don't think that figure is considering how many people die from a drug related condition twenty years later the way the tobacco figure does.

    The other issue is, of course, knowing how to attribute a death. Did you know that nearly half of all homicides and a quarter of all suicides are committed by a drunk person? Did you know that about half of all automotive fatalities involve a drunk person? It's funny, because homicide, suicide, and vehicle accidents all make that list. If we assumed every drunk person wouldn't have taken a life if sober (which isn't quite fair) that would be 41,089 deaths annually on top of the deaths that already come from alcohol abuse.

    You never know.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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