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  1. #341
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    Try living in Somalia where they literally don't have a state, and live in genuine "law of the jungle", and then tell me that...
    Then tell you what? The truth? I already did.

    If humans are inherently terrible, and government officials are humans, then explain to me how they suddenly magic themselves into being exempt.

    Every cop, and every politician is somebody's son or daughter. They grow up as a human. At what point do they become exempt?

    If the state has the ability to override this tendency, then EVERYONE has that ability.

    And even Hobbes would likely posit that if a state cannot stop factionalism and unrest, then the citizens are not obligated to abide by it.

  2. #342
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    Try living in Somalia where they literally don't have a state, and live in genuine "law of the jungle", and then tell me that...
    Also a state as some kind of entity is a contrivance that does not actually exist.

    If a room full of people are gathered together to make policy and they are not killing each other, then that is because of their will to not kill each other, not because of the magical illusion of a sovereign state which does not actually exist anywhere other than an ideal.

  3. #343
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Why is that necessarily the case?

    I mean I don't think it's really necessary to do so but there's nothing inherently wrong with it. It doesn't kill the deer any more severely and if the correct gun and ammunition is used it doesn't over penetrate or poison the deer either.
    If you have to spray a deer with bullets to kill it, you're not much of a hunter. If you hunt because you're hungry, maybe any old way would do, but if you're hunting for sport (and for eating, presumably), there should be some sport involved.

    It's not unheard of to hunt with an AR-15.
    It is in my country.

    Have you ever fired one? I think you haven't. You kind of have to in order to understand. I think you just don't know.
    I would like to fire a gun some day - maybe go clay pigeon shooting or something. But like I said there aren't many guns around in my country so I haven't had the chance. The only ones I've seen are .22 rifles and shotguns, kept by farmers and/or hunters. I do believe there is a place for guns, if they are responsibly managed.

    I understand why people want to have guns like assault rifles and why they enjoy using them (I find it fun just in video games - I imagine it is IRL also). Other than trying one out at a gun range, I just don't think it's good for them to be in the hands of ordinary citizens. I just don't trust people with something that potentially destructive and feel it's best to minimise the risk.

    Is it the big magazine? You don't have to shoot the whole mag. You can put a big mag on a hunting rifle and it will be the same thing.

    Is it because it's semi-automatic? Some hunting rifles are, too.

    Do I recommend it when somebody could use a bolty instead? Not necessarily, but it's not that big of a deal either.
    To me, big magazines and semi-automatics are the realm of law enforcement and military.
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  4. #344
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    If you have to spray a deer with bullets to kill it, you're not much of a hunter. If you hunt because you're hungry, maybe any old way would do, but if you're hunting for sport (and to eat it), there should be some sport involved.
    Who said anything about spraying with bullets? You actually think that happens?

    I assure you it does not. There's a little thing called "firing a single round". AR's can do that, too.

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Then tell you what? The truth? I already did.

    If humans are inherently terrible, and government officials are humans, then explain to me how they suddenly magic themselves into being exempt.

    Every cop, and every politician is somebody's son or daughter. They grow up as a human. At what point do they become exempt?

    If the state has the ability to override this tendency, then EVERYONE has that ability.

    And even Hobbes would likely posit that if a state cannot stop factionalism and unrest, then the citizens are not obligated to abide by it.
    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Also a state as some kind of entity is a contrivance that does not actually exist.

    If a room full of people are gathered together to make policy and they are not killing each other, then that is because of their will to not kill each other, not because of the magical illusion of a sovereign state which does not actually exist anywhere other than an ideal.
    So you don't believe in constitutions or states then?

    I see what you are syaing, but I don't agree. I think forms of organization of society can be superior or inferior. Any organization is more than the sum of its parts - hence their existence. Some facilitate freedom and prosperity, some hinder it. I believe the results prove me right.

  6. #346
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Each time I see this thread I have a sort of "not another" reaction but then I realise its about the shooting at the school and not another, further shooting in between times.

  7. #347
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    So you don't believe in constitutions or states then?

    I see what you are syaing, but I don't agree. I think forms of organization of society can be superior or inferior. Any organization is more than the sum of its parts - hence their existence. Some facilitate freedom and prosperity, some hinder it. I believe the results prove me right.
    I see your point now. An organization can be more than the sum of its parts.

    But if Hobbes were to be believed, we'd have never organized in the first place. There's something to be said for the fact that we even had a desire to organize.

    Unless you want to bring God into it (which people have done, of course, as a way of explaining why the ruler must be sovereign...)

  8. #348
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Who said anything about spraying with bullets? You actually think that happens?

    I assure you it does not. There's a little thing called "firing a single round". AR's can do that, too.
    Then why bother using them if an ordinary rifle can do the same job?
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Then why bother using them if an ordinary rifle can do the same job?
    Why do anything?

    That's a rather tiring question.

  10. #350
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Why do anything?

    That's a rather tiring question.
    Perhaps you misunderstand my point.

    You are arguing that assault rifles have a legitimate purpose in the hands of ordinary citizens. I'm arguing that they don't. They are unnecessary for hunting, so why not severely restrict their ownership? Allowing people to get their hands on guns like that just for the sake of them having the option isn't a good enough reason when you consider the stakes involved.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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