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  1. #331
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    The tribes of Germany slaughtered a whole Roman army of three legions under Publius Quinctilius Varus east of the Rhine in 9 AD. And as consequence Roman rule never extended across the Rhine. This slaughter divided Europe between the Roman South and the Germanic North, lasting right up to the First World War and the Second World War.

    The USA is using the same Imperial techniques against the tribes of the Middle East. And the result is again defeat.

    And those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it.
    @Victor, I'm asking you..
    And that is are you for, or against what you talk about?
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  2. #332
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    I haven't read much of this thread lately, having come to the reluctant conclusion that millions (billions?) of NRA propaganda dollars have been money very well spent indeed. All I'll say is that when every single western nation -- even the ones that like America -- think you've got it horribly wrong on one issue, maybe you should stop and think about that.

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craic View Post
    @Victor, I'm asking you..
    And that is are you for, or against what you talk about?
    It's as though you are asking me whether I am for or against Imperialism or Tribalism

    Well, we have experienced three empires: the British Empire which we loved; the Japanese Empire which we hated; and the American Empire about which we are ambivalent.

    And we have experienced two Tribalisms: the traditional tribalism of New Guinea, New Zealand and Australia which we found to be warring with each other, and abusive of women and children. And we have experienced the second Tribalism of the internet, which we take to like ducks to water.

    So I am for the British Empire and for electronic tribalism in the global village.

    And just as the Sun never set on the British Empire the Sun never sets on etribalism in the global village.

    And of course our first attempt at globalisation occurred prior to WW I in the British Empire but ended badly in world war.

    Our second attempt at globalisation is occurring within the American Empire and we hope it goes well and doesn't end in war with China.

  4. #334
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Love for the British Empire ended in Australia with Bodyline.

  5. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Love for the British Empire ended in Australia with Bodyline.
    Well, just after WW II with Britain hungry and broke, we gave them a billion dollars without being asked and without strings attached. On the other hand, the USA made Britain pay off its war debt right up to the present day. And then of course the USA went on to cut the throat of the British Empire at Suez in 1956.

    And bodyline bowling in cricket was en famille, and all the more bitter for it. But only illustrated our family bonds.

  6. #336
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Was Gallipoli en famille too?

  7. #337
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    "Designed to kill people" is a moving criteria. It's also really a narrow margin. Weapons aren't only designed to kill people. They are designed to kill people more efficiently than before.

    This means that even a flint lock was - in its time - designed to kill people.

    Why does this matter? It matters because a lot of things that aren't designed to kill people are more effective at killing than things which are designed for it.

    Why do people use weapons then? Because weapons are iconic of power. It's a psychological illusion.

    It's less about the design of the weapon and more about what society thinks they are used for. This is especially true because you included blades, where the difference between a killing blade and a tool blade is almost completely cosmetic.


    Your proposal would have been stronger if you had kept it to just guns where it at least makes a little sense.
    Let's put it this way, if you're hunting deer with an assault rifle there's something wrong with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Let me guess, you thought confiscating toenail clippers from passengers before boarding a flight was a giant leap forward in preventing terrorism.
    Comments such as, "ordinary people have no need for..." smacks of a mind open as wide as the eye of a needle.
    I subscribe to the saying, if someone can manage to hijack a plane using nail clippers he deserves the chance to do so.

    I'm not closed minded, I just come from a country were it's very difficult to get hand guns (and semi-automatics in general), borderline impossible to get automatics, and flick knives etc are all banned outright. Gun (and knife) crime is low as a result and I like it that way. In fact, even gun owners and the firearms associations prefer the strict laws because they fear weapons ending up in the wrong hands. It just seems sensible to me.

    Granted we're not perfect but it's better than having a system awash with guns. Almost all of the gun deaths I've heard of in the last few years are idiot hunters who don't follow basic guidelines and shoot people they mistake for deer. Actually, I just looked up our gun death per capita rate and 80% of the deaths are suicides. That's cheerful...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrinth View Post
    Oh? And what do you think about balisongs (butterfly knives)?
    Same sort of thing.
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  8. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    And we regulate what the state gets to regulate.


    The state is also man. The wolf also exists in the state.


    The state is not separate from you. States can be just as savage. States are made of people. The jungle exists everywhere.


    That premise is based in illusions.
    Try living in Somalia where they literally don't have a state, and live in genuine "law of the jungle", and then tell me that...

  9. #339
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    The problem with turning this into a gun control issue is that it has nothing to do with guns. First of all, none of the weapons used in the attack were guns that have any support of being regulated. They were basic pistols and a hunting rifle. Second, the problem isn't the guns, it's the fact that people are wanting to attack schools. If someone wants to attack a school, they'll do it whether they have a gun or not. In fact, on the same day as Sandy Hook, a man in China attacked an elementary school with a knife. He didn't do as much damage, but it was still as much of a tragedy.

    In fact, the most deadly attack on a school (and the most deadly mass murder in American history) didn't use a single gun. It was a bombing back in the early 1900s that killed almost 50 children and adults. The only time the man even used a gun was to shoot into his back seat where he'd loaded more explosives and set off a makeshift car bomb that sent shrapnel out and killed first responders.

    Violence against schools is the issue, not the weapons causing them. Are some weapons insane to have? Yes. Are those the weapons being used? No. Someone who picks up a gun doesn't have the gun call to them for sacrifices of children. People want to hurt the children and so they pick up the gun. That's the issue. And I think Morgan Freeman has it right. We've sensationalized these things so much and examined the killer in the media so much that it's turned suicidal people in spree killers for a last act of existential purpose. Since, as he put it, it's better to go down as a notable person of evil than an unmentionable person who died sad and alone in their basement.

    And honestly, it bugs me when people use these children as tools for a political purpose that's only pseudo-relevant. If an assault rifle had been used in the attack, then maybe I'll let it slide. But nothing being discussed right now has anything to do with Sandy Hook. It's disgusting. I understand the human need to find answers and reasons and something to blame in situations like this, but to go beyond that and use it as a weapon in political theater is absolutely disgusting. If we need to do anything, it's talk about mental illness and the influence of the media on society. Because guns aren't the issue. This man could have loaded his car with explosives and driven it through the window of a classroom, and the body count would be just the same. The thirst for violence transcends the access to guns, human beings have found ways to turn literally anything into a weapon. Nazis used rulers to sexually assault prisoners in France, teens have used broomsticks to sexually assault other teens, the 9/11 hijackers used box cutters to hold an entire plane hostage. Glass vases, plates, tire irons, pruning shears, gardening hoses, telephone cords, we, as humans, have the ability to be violent with any kind of weapon. So to single out guns as a cause for violence is a red herring. It's way better than the alternatives people would start using in the absence of guns, such as the example of above. When people actually start using AK-47s to shoot up schools, then we can have this discussion, and I'm not against assault rifles being more heavily restricted, but this isn't a scenario where the gun control conversation is relevant.
    It was not a normal "hunting rifle", it was a rifle which is commonly referred to as an "assault weapon" - at least it has been reported in the media as such and it doesn't look like a hunting weapon to me. A military-style weapon adapted for "home defense" and for people who like playing with this type of thing. It is exactly the type of weapon that is now being discussed for regulation/ban - even, it seems, by certain members of the NRA!

    And the above ignores the fact that America has massive levels of gun availability which have a plain co-relation with its huge levels of gun crime.

    It is not accurate to say that this is purely a gun issue but I think it's pretty disingenuous to say it has nothing to do with guns.
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  10. #340
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Let's put it this way, if you're hunting deer with an assault rifle there's something wrong with you.
    Why is that necessarily the case?

    I mean I don't think it's really necessary to do so but there's nothing inherently wrong with it. It doesn't kill the deer any more severely and if the correct gun and ammunition is used it doesn't over penetrate or poison the deer either. It's not unheard of to hunt with an AR-15. They come in different chamberings, such as .308

    Have you ever fired one? I think you haven't. You kind of have to in order to understand. I think you just don't know.

    Is it the big magazine? You don't have to shoot the whole mag. You can put a big mag on a hunting rifle and it will be the same thing.

    Is it because it's semi-automatic? Some hunting rifles are, too.

    Do I recommend it when somebody could use a bolty instead? Not necessarily, but it's not that big of a deal either.

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