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  1. #261
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Thanks for the responses to my questions, from various people, they've given me some insight.

    I think one question I asked didn't get an answer or perspective though. (or maybe I missed it!). It was pointed out that more people die from homicides or accidents with handguns than with these "assault" or "military style" weapons. I have no doubt that's true. However, it also seems to be the case that these horrific mass killings have mostly been done with rifles such as the one used for the last massacre.

    Even if statistically, these weapons kill less people, surely there's something - ideological? if that's the right word? (probably not) - to be looked at here? Why do these crazy, heartless people who kill a group of defenceless children, a bunch of moviegoers, whatever, choose these types of weapons in particular? Is it that they are being glorified? Does the presence of the weapons help to give them the idea? (like, this guy's mother was really into guns and had a collection including this type of weapon?)
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  2. #262
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Thanks for the responses to my questions, from various people, they've given me some insight.

    I think one question I asked didn't get an answer or perspective though. (or maybe I missed it!). It was pointed out that more people die from homicides or accidents with handguns than with these "assault" or "military style" weapons. I have no doubt that's true. However, it also seems to be the case that these horrific mass killings have mostly been done with rifles such as the one used for the last massacre.

    Even if statistically, these weapons kill less people, surely there's something - ideological? if that's the right word? (probably not) - to be looked at here? Why do these crazy, heartless people who kill a group of defenceless children, a bunch of moviegoers, whatever, choose these types of weapons in particular? Is it that they are being glorified? Does the presence of the weapons help to give them the idea? (like, this guy's mother was really into guns and had a collection including this type of weapon?)
    Probably that they are glorified, along with power and intimidation factor, maybe along with the fact that they are going all out and taking a bunch of people with them so they don't care about concealment or how easy it is to carry it. Basically they are just completely not right.

    Handguns are easier to conceal, easier to steal, and easier to traffic illegally which probably accounts for most of the higher numbers.

  3. #263
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Define 'ridiculously hard test'. Something ridiculously hard to you may not be that hard to other people.

    If it's unreasonable then there is no point in allowing it at all. It would be like saying "Oh, sure you can have this. No problem! But you must accomplish this impossible task first."

    It doesn't necessarily need to be ridiculously hard. It just needs to suit those who are suitable.
    The details on how to do something are important after you have decided to do something. Of course just a hard test wouldnt be the solution, I just said that cause I didnt put a lot of thought in the details.

    The real problem arent how you change weapon rights, its like leger said it; America has a history with guns, its even in your constitution. If Obama now would ban all weapons the next republican president would prolly bring them back. So before you can concern with the details you really need to work on telling people that weapons kill people. I mean America is first regarding gun shot deaths in the World and I dont believe thats because people especially dislike each others in the country; its because its so easy to get a gun and shoot those that bug you.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #264
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    The details on how to do something are important after you have decided to do something. Of course just a hard test wouldnt be the solution, I just said that cause I didnt put a lot of thought in the details.

    The real problem arent how you change weapon rights, its like leger said it; America has a history with guns, its even in your constitution. If Obama now would ban all weapons the next republican president would prolly bring them back. So before you can concern with the details you really need to work on telling people that weapons kill people. I mean America is first regarding gun shot deaths in the World and I dont believe thats because people especially dislike each others in the country; its because its so easy to get a gun and shoot those that bug you.
    Yeah. It's easy to get a gun and shoot those that bug you, but most people mysteriously don't. They seriously don't.

    I hate to bring up statistics yet again because it's tragic if even one person is murdered, but people seriously do over react. It's just not in line with what actually happens.

    In the US the total firearm death rate is 9 for 100,000 people. Nine people out of every hundred thousand. Nine. That's murders, suicides, and accidents.

    Truly, while it is terrible that this happens, it is hardly the epidemic people make it out to be. Is it entirely unacceptable? I guess that's up to you to decide.


    All I ask is that people look at it clearly and not let the sensationalists on either side of it frighten or coerce you into any beliefs.

    Edit:
    Also The US is absolutely not first in the world regarding firearm deaths. I think we are about 12th. I'm not sure what is current.

    We are up there but definitely not in first.

  5. #265
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Yeah. It's easy to get a gun and shoot those that bug you, but most people mysteriously don't. They seriously don't.

    I hate to bring up statistics yet again because it's tragic if even one person is murdered, but people seriously do over react. It's just not in line with what actually happens.

    In the US the total firearm death rate is 9 for 100,000 people. Nine people out of every hundred thousand. Nine. That's murders, suicides, and accidents.

    Truly, while it is terrible that this happens, it is hardly the epidemic people make it out to be. Is it entirely unacceptable? I guess that's up to you to decide.


    All I ask is that people look at it clearly and not let the sensationalists on either side of it frighten or coerce you into any beliefs.
    It is far higher than for most other countries, still. Surely that raises some concerns and questions in people's minds, or it should? Also, these mass shootings have occurred occasionally in other countries, but they occur semi-regularly in the US.
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  6. #266
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    It is far higher than for most other countries, still. Surely that raises some concerns and questions in people's minds, or it should? Also, these mass shootings have occurred occasionally in other countries, but they occur semi-regularly in the US.
    Yeah I definitely think it is worth looking at. Not so much for the danger but for the social and cultural impact that is going on.

  7. #267
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    Prices on semi auto rifles and especially Hi-cap mags have already skyrocketed.

    A good day to be a licensed firearm dealer certainly.

  8. #268
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    Also, that assault weapons ban sure helped those kids in Columbine.

  9. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    It's okay to be idealistic, but you should understand why banning guns wouldn't work here.
    Meh.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...rol?intcmp=239
    And he had a clear message this time, unlike any of his previous responses: "We can't tolerate this any more. These tragedies must end. And to end them, we must change."

    Without straying into specifics, he laid down the parameters of the change that he said America now has to make. He promised to engage law enforcement, parents, educators and others in a dialogue on how to prevent further mass shootings.

    "What choice do we have? We cannot accept events like this as routine. Are we really prepared to say we are powerless in the face of such carnage? That the violence visited on our children year after year is the price of our freedom?"
    Them's fighting words.


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  10. #270
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Morto Che Parla View Post
    It will happen in some cases, but they will be much less effective, and many lives will be saved as a result.

    I live in Britain where guns are very hard to get hold of. You do get some knife crime, but not large-scale "knife massacres" - not exactly an easy thing to do.
    This is like modern medicine attempting to treat the symptoms but ignoring the underlying cause. Everyone wants to ban guns but no one wants to take a look at our failing mental health system. How about free mental healthcare for teens and young adults? How about getting rid of the stigma attached to mental illness so that people aren't scared to come forward when they or their loved ones are suffering from an illness, acting erratically, making violent threats. In the US, we tend to ignore our problems or place the blame on something else. In this case it's guns, some people blame rape on provocatively dressed women, or blame the president for the economy, or blame the chair for being in our way when we run into it instead of blaming ourselves for not paying attention and finding solutions to problems, instead of sweeping them under the rug. We ignore our children, we don't monitor their behavior, we give them unhindered access to the internet(where most of these school shooters have given indications that they want to murder schoolmates, parents or others). This is a complex problem that requires more than just banning guns, it requires things like involved parenting and repairing our broken mental health system and changing attitudes towards the mentally ill, some of these and other contributing factors can't be solved by legislation and something that's usually exacerbated by mass media. It's been mentioned before in this thread, that there are examples of gun ownership in other countries that have much lower rates of gun violence. What about their rates of mental illness and their culture? Is their mental health system collapsing like ours? Is their culture divided into varied sociopathic subcultures, some of which still pervade popular culture, that are celebrated in movies and music?

    No, your right, that's too much work, lets just ban guns so we can feel better about ourselves.

    This is usually the problem when Europeans attempt to propose a ban on guns in the US. We aren't a tiny country with 20 million people and generations of forced disarmament and oppression. We've never had a king or a dictator and government has largely been kept out of our private lives. We haven't been fucked in the ass the way that most European countries have in the last two centuries. No one has invaded us and made us feel that bending over for the Germans, for example, is acceptable. But, in exchange, we have complexes as you can clearly see from the last few sentences. I haven't decided which one is better yet. The US has had a long history of private gun ownership. There are millions of guns whose purchase has a paper trail, beyond those guns, there are inherited guns, black powder guns(which aren't considered firearms in most states), illegal guns, homemade guns, guns with no record of existence, guns in caches behind houses in Idaho, etc. The point is, there's no way that people are going to get rid of all of the guns in the US. It's a large country with lots of houses, barns, sheds, basements and other hiding places. People who want guns would still be able to get them if they were banned, people who don't want the government taking their guns would hide them in the unlikely event that the ATF comes up with the billions of dollars it would require to search every house in the country. Even then, who's going to ban the readily available materials needed to build a rudimentary semi-auto pistol? Even then, who's going to secure the borders so that guns can't find their way back into the country to be sold on the black market? Even then, what kind of sociopath is going to let a lack of guns stop them from planting bombs at a school? Are you going to censor the internet so bomb-making and gun-making plans can't be found? I'm not saying that easier access to guns isn't a part of the problem, but banning guns isn't the solution either. Anyone with $20 and the will to murder can make a magazine-fed shotgun. The part of the equation that needs to be solved is the "will to murder".
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


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