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  1. #211
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrinth View Post
    Again, I'm arguing for a side that I don't fully understand, so I can't really tell you what reasons they might have. However, in this situation, would it really have mattered if he didn't have access to a semi-automatic rifle?

    Please don't take this the wrong way... But he was shooting at little children trapped in a building... The human equivalent of fish in a barrel... I think they would be just as dead if he went in there with a single handgun, or hell... even something like a hammer... He was a coward, and he found people who could not defend themselves. You don't need the advantage of a semi-auto weapon for that...

    *sigh*
    The gun in Dunblane who killed the children in a kindergarden there had two revolvers.

    The guy in NI who stormed a school and used a flame thrower on children sitting exams had invented the weapon he used himself, it was entirely improvised from a fire extingusher.

  2. #212
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    Idk how effective the hammer would be in a school full of teachers, but it wouldn't come to that anyway. People like this would resort to bombs in the absence of firearms, but would everyone be calling for a ban on bombs?
    That was something I thought about too when the inevitable discussion of why he choose this target got aired yesterday, it was a soft target, kiddies are defenceless and no threat to the gun man, there's a reason that hells angels arent ever the target I reckon, that reason is they would be fighting back.

  3. #213
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    I haven't looked up much information on this but does anyone know if he deliberately targeted his mother's students? Or was it more random?

  4. #214
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    @Lark - I definitely think the paranoia culture has a lot to do with that. I don't know if Americans themselves feel that they live in a sort of super-paranoid culture (maybe some of you can answer that?) but it is definitely how much of the world perceives America and the gun culture is a big part of that.
    Some people are super paranoid, but I think they are a vocal minority.

    Generally though we are big on individualism and individual liberty. That's like an ingrained core ideal.

    Just like one who lives in a more collective society can't understand why we want to be so individual, even with the inherent risks, some of us also can't understand how the opposite culture allows censorship and basically telling people what they can and can't do. For example the way some countries ban certain depictions of violence in video games or movies.

    To us, an individual has to be free to govern himself for the most part. The idea is that we should go along what is good and safe because we have decided that it is good and safe, regardless of the law, rather than being forced under a rule which does not actually teach anyone to be a better person, it just stops their actions.

    This is why we say that people kill people. Because it is true. Take Australia for example - Australia still has some three million privately owned firearms, and about 700,000 of those are handguns. The firearm homicide rate has nearly vanished - I think it's somewhere around 0.14 per capita. If guns kill people, why is this not a different number? If guns kill people, why leave it at three million?

    Because guns don't kill people. People do. Lots of loose guns make it easier for people to kill people, yes. But that doesn't change the core principle.

  5. #215
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Some people are super paranoid, but I think they are a vocal minority.

    Generally though we are big on individualism and individual liberty. That's like an ingrained core ideal.

    Just like one who lives in a more collective society can't understand why we want to be so individual, even with the inherent risks, some of us also can't understand how the opposite culture allows censorship and basically telling people what they can and can't do. For example the way some countries ban certain depictions of violence in video games or movies.

    To us, an individual has to be free to govern himself for the most part. The idea is that we should go along what is good and safe because we have decided that it is good and safe, regardless of the law, rather than being forced under a rule which does not actually teach anyone to be a better person, it just stops their actions.

    This is why we say that people kill people. Because it is true. Take Australia for example - Australia still has some three million privately owned firearms, and about 700,000 of those are handguns. The firearm homicide rate has nearly vanished - I think it's somewhere around 0.14 per capita. If guns kill people, why is this not a different number? If guns kill people, why leave it at three million?

    Because guns don't kill people. People do. Lots of loose guns make it easier for people to kill people, yes. But that doesn't change the core principle.
    I know you're not going to agree or probably wont understand what I'm saying when I say it but I think for the reasons you outline above that the US is the only place were socialism could succeed as it was meant to be rather than what the Russians or Chinese distorted it into.

  6. #216
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I know you're not going to agree or probably wont understand what I'm saying when I say it but I think for the reasons you outline above that the US is the only place were socialism could succeed as it was meant to be rather than what the Russians or Chinese distorted it into.
    Yeah that might be true one day if people learn to understand what it is about. There's still a lot of people alive that saw the Red Scare and a lot of people still blindly hate socialism or anything resembling it.

  7. #217
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Yeah that might be true one day if people learn to understand what it is about. There's still a lot of people alive that saw the Red Scare and a lot of people still blindly hate socialism or anything resembling it.
    Well I'd hate it too if it were what most libertarians say it is, although I know they are wrong, at least from a lot of the sources I've examined first hand.

    It definitely needs to be underpinned by the sort of culture you described there, in fact a lot of the objections to capitalism I think carry water are those that rightly focus upon the fact that capitalism is killing that culture and turning it into a fantasy rather than a lived reality for most people.

  8. #218
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    To me it's a very individualistic, selfish mentality.
    That is sort of what I think as well. I am philosophically opposed. If people want to smoke and kill themselves that's their privilege. Guns are a bit different.

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  9. #219
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well I'd hate it too if it were what most libertarians say it is, although I know they are wrong, at least from a lot of the sources I've examined first hand.

    It definitely needs to be underpinned by the sort of culture you described there, in fact a lot of the objections to capitalism I think carry water are those that rightly focus upon the fact that capitalism is killing that culture and turning it into a fantasy rather than a lived reality for most people.
    Yeah. There's a quiet battle going on and slowly but surely people are gaining independence. A lot of it is in the software industry but the fight is spilling over into the hardware industry as well.

    Services like Steam and Kickstarter are enabling this to happen right under people's noses.

  10. #220
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Yeah. He would have killed a lot of people with the handguns, too. But it's not like the fact he had the semi-automatic rifle helped to alleviate the situation.

    Also, it seems somewhat beyond coincidence that these massacres (like school shootings, theatre shootings etc) have generally been carried out with weapons such as the semi-automatic rifle, rather than just handguns. What that indicates I don't know but it seems to raise questions.
    As you may have noticed from my profile, I am somewhat of a firearms nerd. If you are really interested in guns and gun laws, I'd be happy to talk to you about that stuff at length.

    And now for some words from one of my favorite bloggers. He's an American cop and a veteran, so his life and mindset are dramatically different than yours. I don't agree with him 100% of the time. That said, I think he makes some good points.

    http://officersmith.blogspot.com/201...ere-gonna.html

    EDIT: I should maybe add for myself that in a war situation I would be a conscientious objector, and I don't believe in violence except in self-defense. I don't believe that carrying a weapon in preparation for self-defense is something I could do on the basis of my beliefs and principles.
    I'm fine with that. I certainly wouldn't want to force someone who is not comfortable with weapons to carry one.

    But I'm mainly asking these questions just to get some perspective because I haven't spent much time in the US (despite growing up just across the border), and I think this is an area where the mindset is very different between Canadians and Americans.
    Very true. Just look at the origins of modern Canada and modern America. A lot of people here were sick of British rule and enough of them were willing to fight and die for America to gain independence. Canada was a different story.

    I now live in Europe and a lot of people here basically just think Americans are mad, but European views on Americans tend to be quite close-minded.
    I really appreciate your open-mindedness.
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